Tony Canas: 0:00

the wildest thing I've ever seen happen in an insurance agency was a 23 year old getting hired right out of college within four months getting promoted to sales manager within a couple of years getting promoted to director of operations, COO, and within five years of being there getting promoted as CEO of the largest agency of this particular captive company in the country. And then after a year, he left and opened his own agency instead of staying there continuing to run it and now he's running that agency. And he's he's also running a consulting firm that helps other agencies sell better. blue bow. Absolutely blue.

Jason Feltman: 0:39

Okay, that's awesome.

Tony Canas: 0:40

So my name is Tony Cardenas, and I am with insurance nerds profits in risk podcast and top hat recruiting. And in Atlanta, Georgia. Kind of thing when Osiris Argentina I'm a digital nomad, theoretically Atlanta based and an insurance dude.

Craig Pretzinger: 0:58

Insurance dudes are on a mission to escape be handcuffed by our agencies. How?

Jason Feltman: 1:05

by uncovering the secrets to creating a predictable, consistent and profitable agency Sales Machine.

Craig Pretzinger: 1:12

I am Craig Pretzinger.

Jason Feltman: 1:13

I am Jason Feldman. We are agents we are insurances Wow, that was a lot. Yes. You wear many hats.

Craig Pretzinger: 1:30

Oh, oh no, you did this.

Tony Canas: 1:32

Should should I introduce myself basically? Yes. Okay, so I'll make it as short as I can. I'm a giant insurance nerd grew up in the carrier space worked at four different carriers over the first 10 years of my career did claims their underwriting did self management did a leadership program ended up being a middle market underwriter got my CPC when nine or designations and I fell in love with the topic of how do we engage and retain the younger generation, the millennials and the Gen. Sears in the insurance space. So when I left that big carrier that I was working at, I had been running their young professional employee group for a couple years, I had expanded it to four new offices. And I really missed that work. So I started insurance nerds originally a blog about insurance careers and technology very carrier heavy, I started speaking at conferences about how to engage and retain Millennials within insurance. One day, my girlfriend came home, she worked at a very, very large broker at a global broker first time. So as an account executive, then as as a corporate VP, well grew into the into the corporate side to the VP level. One day, she came home from manager meetings and said, they don't get it, you have to write the book. So me and my co author, we wrote the book, it's called, it's called ensuring tomorrow normally, I would grab it and show it but I'm on the road. So I don't have a copy on me. So basically, I've made my name on the topic of how to engage and retain millennials and Gen Zers in insurance. And when my book came out, I was working at a very large carrier as a middle market underwriter. And that very large carrier got very uncomfortable with having me on payroll, it didn't get to a point where they showed me the door. But I ended up leaving and going to the largest recruiting firm in insurance. I worked with them for four and a half years. And then a year ago, July of last year, I opened my own little shop, which is called Top recruiting. So the funny thing is, is the top hat precluded that first. So yeah, that's That's mean, in a nutshell, I'm deeply passionate about this industry. And one of the things I do is I run chat with Tony lo comm which is free career advice for any insurance professional and I've been running that since a lot longer than before I became a recruiter, and it's called Chat with tony.com. And literally, it's a quick link to my calendar, and anybody can get on my calendar, and I do about 400 of those a year. They're free. And I help lots of insurance professionals find the next adventure whether it's carrier side broker, side, insurer tech side, you name it.

Jason Feltman: 3:47

Wow. Okay, that's why you're on here is because you are a very, very interesting, dude. Thank you. And the topic that we really wanted to dive into you is the topic of like, how do we retain the younger generation and I think that generation back when they with the big bicycles with a giant rubber tire, tiny little back

Craig Pretzinger: 4:17

that you could

Tony Canas: 4:20

wear, so I'm gonna take a wild guess that you're an expert. And you're not wrong, because your generation is in a really cool position. I'm an older millennial and elder millennial. I'm 40 now, which is really weird, because I've been speaking about kids in insurance basically, for so long that I'm now 40. And the industry is still only halfway get it right. But I talked to a lot of Gen Xers and I chatted with Tony and I tell them this is your time because the boomers are finally retiring like for real. This has said it's no longer a drill. We just died years by either retired the older boomers have either retired or died. In the case of insurance agents usually Be at the desk because they never retire. Basically, it's too profitable. So the Gen Xers are finally taking over. And you guys are a small generation 20 million people less than the boomers. So basically, while we're exclusive, yes, it's an exclusive club. And while you will never have the numbers, you are inheriting the leadership roles, both carrier and broker side. Now you're going to have to work with the millennials, which are a very large generation. But yes, but this is your time to shine be picky about your next job, be picky about which agency, you're going to go work for next, or which agency you're going to buy next. The because you have the experience that my generation doesn't have, especially because a lot of my generation grew up in the freaking call center, whether carrier side or broker side, we just don't have the experience while you guys started in the industry, while the training products were still fantastic. And you learn from the boomers, and now that they're retiring, you've got 1520 years of experience. This is your industry to run now, don't let us down.

Jason Feltman: 6:02

So you realize that Craig is a boomer or you

Craig Pretzinger: 6:05

know, Harris are

Tony Canas: 6:08

okay, yeah, there's no way I was gonna say, like incredibly young looking for I think the youngest Boomer is now what, like 5354, or something like that. Yeah, I'd

Craig Pretzinger: 6:18

be younger than that. Barely. Big Five. So I'm curious why there's this sort of perception that the millennials could be kind of entitled, and maybe whiny. We aren't off to baby. But this isn't my opinion. This is just an opinion. I've heard.

Tony Canas: 6:43

Yeah, no, no, it, I spent a lot of time researching this issue, because it's definitely that perception. And the basically, there is some really good research that goes back literally hundreds of years. And again, I'm not a demographer. I'm not a researcher, I just prefer that. So basically, there's some really cool research that goes back hundreds of years, which has found that generations that grew up during times of abundance, grow up slower, getting married later, leave home later, right, settle down later. And the millennials, we grew up in the mid 80s. And the 90s, a time of historic abundance in the States. And we

Craig Pretzinger: 7:26

were raised for the tech right. Unprecedented technology,

Tony Canas: 7:30

unprecedented technology and unprecedented abundance. Right? Yeah. It's the economy. Stupid, right? So the our parents are boomers. And boomers had a really unique parenting philosophy, which was I want you to have it better than I did. Right. And they had the money also. So basically, they spoiled us and we came out into the working world expecting Oh, and and also our boomer parents told us that we were special snowflakes right?

Craig Pretzinger: 8:04

covered those helicopter Be very

Tony Canas: 8:06

careful with that phrasing. I don't want to go for the political definition of snowflake. But basically, we're, you're a special star and you're just gonna rock it in the in the world and you have to do amazing. And we go and become the most educated generation ever. Also the most indebted education generation for that education. Also, the boomers fought to stop the investing education. But anyway, we graduate. And it turns out, life's not as easy as our as our parents made it look. Right.

Craig Pretzinger: 8:32

Oh, good at it.

Tony Canas: 8:34

Right. So basically, yes, we are a little spoiled, and we are growing up slower. And by the way, it's really hilarious that I continue getting paid speaking gigs to talk about millennials and insurance. And now Gen Sears. We're freaking 40 years old, right? That is the oldest Millennials about 42, depending on which demographer you're there, the years are a little bit fuzzy. But But basically, interestingly, we have grown up, but we've grown up in very different ways from our parents. We ended up having less kids, we ended up getting married later, we ended up settling down later. We just look at life differently. Also, we are a mission driven generation, because our parents were workaholics or dads especially we're workaholics. And they told us don't do what I did. Follow your dreams, which is horrible career advice, by the way. So that is the worst. We were

Craig Pretzinger: 9:31

really, I don't know, I would argue the opposite. I think that that's great advice. Because if you don't do what you love,

Tony Canas: 9:37

yes, yes, yes. Yes. The problem is at 15 You have no idea what you will what you will love right? At 17 or 18. You have no idea. When I graduate college at 24. I had no idea what I was going to love. I grew up thinking I was going to work in computer science. It turns out if you can't do math, you will never finish college. Right. And that's a lesson that I learned the hard way little by little. But anyway, I graduated what a business degree ended up working as a as a transportation fleet manager got down since in oh nine, I still hadn't found what I loved. And then I fell into insurance. Farm Bureau bio does a fantastic job in in training me. And I fall in love with insurance and it's now going on, I don't know, 13 or 14 years since then. I could not have possibly known that right. So I've had people asked me, Tony, if you could go back to your 18 year old Tony, and share wisdom, what would you share, and what I want to say is study risk management and insurance. But here's the funny thing. If I did that, and Tony listened to me, which he wouldn't, but if he listened to me, he would have ended up going to a different university because Iowa State University where I got both my bachelor's and my MBA doesn't have an insurance program. So that would have changed my entire life right there. And number two, he would have this alternate Tony would have graduated from temple or from St. Joe's or from Florida State, or Eastern Kentucky University, one of the other major my programs are University of Arizona, perfect, there's not that many of them right. And would have started his his career, either in an underwriting training program or in a broker training program would have skipped everything that I lived in the call center, everything that I lived in entry level claims, and would have never seen the horrible stuff that happens in those call centers. Right, right. And does insurance nurse would have never been born, right, I would be a boring corporate executive today, instead of this beautiful life that I lead. So anyway, I don't even know how we got to this topic. But

Jason Feltman: 11:37

go ahead. Yeah, I was gonna say I like I the reason why I don't like the do what you love concept is because it's, it's more of like, find what you love. And if you look at it, it's like the ultimate funnel, right? It's just like, when you're, if you want sales, you need a lot of leads to find the sales, the people that actually want your product. And it's the same thing. It's like, you got to get a lot of experience to find out what you do and don't like and acquire a bunch of skills. Because like, if I would have known this net, like when I was younger, I would have done more more jobs that I liked realizing, Hey, I'm acquiring skills, they'll add up, right, they they compound over time they add up and the things I learned in Starbucks, when I like I'm using today in business, and it's like, it wasn't just making coffee, you know what I mean? It was,

Tony Canas: 12:32

the advice should should be try a lot of things early on. Yeah, focus on the things that match your strengths. Because if you do something you're good at, you'll enjoy it, and you'll get good at it. And then once you choose something, dig in, like jumping with both feet and nerd on it, and and and then you want work at that, like I'm a great example, I haven't worked a day in the last like five years, because because my last two roles have been perfect fits for me.

Craig Pretzinger: 13:02

But I will not slow down. By the

Tony Canas: 13:05

time I knew enough to find those jobs. Right. 25, I had no chance of getting it right.

Craig Pretzinger: 13:11

So Tony, you talk to a lot of I want to switch gears here. You talk to a lot of candidates for the insurance world. And as you would know, probably the biggest gripe that every agent has is the the people that there are their employees, right and then finding the new ones and they don't a lot of agents and myself included in the past. Did it realize that it's another funnel, right? It's just like the sales funnel, you have to always be recruited. If you don't, when when not if when somebody leaves or when they all leave at the same time or something like that happens. If you're not ready. You're doubt right, like you, you just lost bonus. You just lost everything for the year, the year is over. And so how do we better find the millennials that we say are a little bit tougher to work with is how do we find how do we find it attract those guys and gals that are actually going to love what they're doing in the same way that you do so that they don't so they say, Oh, I don't ever work because what what we see and hear a lot with a lot of the agents that we interact with is is Oh yeah, you know, we spent all this time hiring, and then they just didn't come back from lunch. Or they don't want to frickin they don't want to come in on time or they're always calling it sick. And it's it's the same thing over and over. And you hear it too. Right? Perfect.

Tony Canas: 14:31

So on the recruiting side, because of the nature of being a third party recruiter, we basically were expensive. So we basically only work with experienced people otherwise they wouldn't be bringing us in. However, having said that, on the chat with Tony side, I chatted with many, many, many, many, many very young, aspiring insurance professional, let's put it that way. Sometimes people that just happen to hear that insurance was a good career and give me a call before actually getting a job. Okay. So basically, number one thing Some advice I have is make sure that you're putting people in the right seat of the bus. Right? If you're hiring somebody who is very detail oriented, and kind of quiet, right, a high C in the DISC profile, and you put them in a Sales Rule, they're not gonna do well. On the other hand, when you hire a Tony, and put them in a service role that requires attention to detail, I'm not going to do well, like yes, I should have some self knowledge. And in the person who's following my advice, they will have done StrengthsFinder, they will have done the DISC profile, they will have done some introspection, and then applied only for roles that matched their aptitudes and then focused on growing in those roles. But that's not how recruiting works in the in the real world, right? Basically, whether your your your your recruiter, or you have one person agency that does recruiting as part of of her job likely like the head of HR or something, if you do have an HR person, right? Anyway, somebody has a side, a side role of recruiting, they are likely not well trained enough to even if this happens, if one of the big carriers, those recruiters are not well trained enough to to find people and put them in the right seats know that they're trained to quickly fill the roles in front of them, they're not worried about whether that person is successful in the long term, right, because what they're measured on is, is just filling roles quickly. Okay, so basically focus on on, on on making sure you have the people in the right seats. Number two, you have to train them, we have a horrible training program. And it's a horrible training training problem in our industry. And this is true both carrier and broker side, you have to train, you have to give them the tools. Number three, you have to realize that it's 2023, not not 1955. I love the license plate. By the way, you have to realize that if you're putting them in front of a green screen, I think this happens less than the inside, but it's still happening in the in the carrier side, they've never seen a green screen before they've immediately started searching for the next job. And also you have to realize that millennials are mission driven, we have a great mission and insurance we help people get back on their feet. But if you're not helping them see that if all you're making them think is that their job is to sell, or if you're making them think that their job is to handle angry customer calls when they want to make a change or they had a bad claim or, or whatever it's going to take them years to realize how their job their little job feeds into something important. You have to help them understand that from the from the beginning. And also you have to give them a career path. With brokers not a big problem producers, like break if you can sell a great career path, but your service people historically, those roles have been staffed. The girls historically have been staffed by high school educated women who stay with you forever. And I've seen this in agencies all over the country. Okay, especially in PNC, I don't know about life and health, but in PNC, it's endemic, okay, the girls will retire, and you're not gonna be able to replace them. Because the demographic of high school educated women is disappearing. I graduated college in 2016, excuse me in 2006. And from there today, something like 55 or 60% of college degrees have have gone to women. So there's just not a lot of high school educated women anymore. They have significantly out educated themselves compared to men. And if you look at my generation of women and younger, they're just as smart. They've always been, they're just as ambitious. And they're, they're better educated than the guys are. So many of them don't want to become a producer. What other career path is there within a normal agency, we have to give them a real career path, right? Otherwise, you're gonna have a very, and by the way, once they have some experience, they can work remotely for an agency anywhere in the country. And you will lose them guaranteed, right? So we have to figure out great career paths for people, whether they're producers or not, I think that those are the biggest things we get wrong. That's a lot of that, that I spent so much time thinking about this, basically,

Jason Feltman: 18:57

it's so true. The Vision part of this. So like the mission based part of this is something that I think I'm in the middle, kind of right. I'm 43. So I understand like, for me, it was important. Like it took me a long time to get into insurance prior to that I was bartending up until my mid 30s So I was looking for the like, what am I good at? Like, what am I you know, what's the perfect job like that's why that kind of resonated with me it was because it was like, you can kind of find anything you like and businesses only have so many parts to the business. It's just has a different wrapper on it for different things, right. So like, for me like a mission, a vision is more important to me than let's say like, maybe while my mom is very mission based but like let's say like her generation or just a little bit older generation than me, you see it in a lot of other I see this in a lot of other insurance agencies where they don't think about that. There is no mission, no vision.

Tony Canas: 19:57

Your average agent, especially as the principal is A Boomer. And I mean by age No, not the whole. By ages are Boomer boomers, including my dad were raised to be workhorses. They were raised like you to provide for your family, your, your the meaning comprise your family, you will work until you drop dead, and you did your job correctly. And they just don't even understand like my dad has has a hard time my dad has seen my presentation on millennials. And he's like, yeah, good for you. I've got that people pay you to do that. But he's like,

Craig Pretzinger: 20:26

I can't believe people pay you.

Jason Feltman: 20:30

He's supportive.

Tony Canas: 20:31

He's like, if I'm paying you do your job, right? Well, on your parents

Craig Pretzinger: 20:41

doing over their podcast, what's that?

Tony Canas: 20:46

So basically, like, so the boomer leadership, both carrier and broker side, it's even worse agency side, because they tend to stay forever, has a very hard time understanding the idea if I'm already paying you, why do I also have to motivate you, but it's every other way. And there is mission? The Boomers are

Craig Pretzinger: 21:06

a lot of tough love and scarcity, right? Because look at how they were they were raised by the I don't know what that generation is called. But the ones that were in the Depression,

Tony Canas: 21:16

right, we'll see. Mostly raised by the silent generation.

Craig Pretzinger: 21:19

Yeah, the ones in the Depression. Like I mean, literally, if I don't go do this, like dig that hole, then we're not going to eat. Right, right. So that's, it's interesting, right? So there was this, it's like to dip dualities like you in that you said, the boomers then said, Screw that, that was terrible. I want to make a great for my kids. And then we show up now and you know, kind of I don't I don't even know what my kids generation is called.

Tony Canas: 21:48

Like a Gen Z. So basically, the kids coming out of college today, and for the last maybe four, four or five years are Gen Zers. Gen Z. Here's what when I first started talking about generations, most demographers thought that that millennials ended at birth date, birth year 2000. And now they've actually moved the line. And now they say that the last millennial was born in 85. Why 95? Because if you were born after 95, you don't remember the world. Before 911. The entire the entire life has been post 911. And as you and me, as we remember, different from prenatal, right. So those kids were born, they don't remember the world before 911. They also they weren't raised by boomers, they were raised by experts. And Xers are not boomers. Xers are skeptical. And so basically, no, we're not. My boomer parents are my generation of boomer parents. Right? Like we would get a an eighth place ribbon. Pool, right? When I came in 15 minutes, I halfway drowned came in late. Right? So my little brother who's who's 20 and my sister who's 24, their generational experience, especially my little brother was very different. They were raised Well, mine word but like the average sincere was raised by genetics or so my old boss, Brad wildly great story. Gen X are kids eight years old, that kid participates in some sort of sporting event comes in, I don't know, third or fourth out of 10. So he didn't do that bad. And he got he got a ribbon. Right? They got home, Brad grabbed the ribbon, and literally said that if you're on when when this means nothing, and shredded the ribbon in front of ya. So So in Sears are a lot better in many ways. Because they were raised differently. If you're not first you're last baby. Exactly. So they're much more competitive. Millennials. When we went to school, it was all about group project and all about all about self esteem. Right? We love group work. It's hard for us to not try to have a team to do things Gen Z are much more individualistic, like Jeanette like, like Gen Xers. However, Gen Sears won't put up with crappy technology, they have a side gig, and many insurance companies are uncomfortable with with like my etsy store or whatever my site happens to be because I want you fully dedicated to my thing, right? And then it gets even more complicated because now we also have a sub generation of Gen. Sears, who ended high school and did a good part of college remotely because of COVID. And they don't have the in person people skills. Yes, that the rest of us have. And I think

Craig Pretzinger: 24:40

part of that, I think part of that like lack of social skills comes from the the invention of text because it went from like calling to texted right. And so there's no like salutation like, Hey, how you doing? It's just straight. Where's my shirt?

Tony Canas: 24:57

Right one of the number one question students that I get from agents is, how do I get them? And by the way, same exact code, same exact complaint from claims leaders and even from underwriting leaders? How do I get them to freaking make a phone call? You bet

Craig Pretzinger: 25:16

you turn off their Instagram? No. And

Tony Canas: 25:19

the answer is you don't. We are myself included, deeply uncomfortable with unscheduled phone calls. Now, if it's on the schedule, it's fine. But like calling you when you're not expecting my call, deeply uncomfortable. Why? Because we grew up and Jensenius even more with asynchronous types of communications, and like texting and extreme comfort. So yes, and the beauty of an open asynchronous type of communication is that I can take the time to think about my reply. I don't have to eat. So we are deeply uncomfortable with either making like inbound calls, you can train us for that outbound Forget it. It is very, very, very hard to

Craig Pretzinger: 26:03

like every millennial has ADHD, and that needs to be treated that way. And this has no but it's true, right? If you're, if you have ADHD are in this conversation, too many thoughts going at the same time. So it's difficult to respond sometimes, right, especially if there's other stimuli around. So I can I can actually empathize with that, like, I have an understanding of like that, like I but I have learned a bit I grew up doing the phone, right. So

Tony Canas: 26:33

in general, maybe not to get us to outbound calls, because that's almost impossible. But but you know, what we're getting out here. Give me the kitchen works. Right. And of course, our Boomer leaders think, Oh, I will just put more money, right, I will give you a bonus for doing what I want you to do. Right? It only works to a certain level. If I'm comfort, if you're making enough money. I won't make another uncomfortable phone call. Because you're offering me more money. But right. If I if you make it a competition, now we're talking, and there are 100%. Right, but my dad's generation, right, they go back to me that he's a great guy, but he's a very classic Boomer gave me the Keightley. Like, what? Yeah,

Craig Pretzinger: 27:18

it's a job. It's work. It's not fun, right? Why do you have to take the fun out of everyday grandpa?

Jason Feltman: 27:27

Did gamification is the number one thing that helped our sales team for years, it was the number in it crazy how it can't like if you quantify the money. If you quantify the money off of it, it had nothing to like the actual motivation. It actually came from the gamification rather than the monetary compensation, like big time. Yeah.

Craig Pretzinger: 27:56

That makes perfect sense. I love contests like contests, like even like, it's for me, it's like, the only reward I can ever think of as money because it's just like, that's all that matters, right? It's my path to the to everything else. But for them, it's like I have to it's like, almost like a Chucky Cheese, I have to take the money, I have to convert it into something else. And then I have to sell it in some kind of game. Go, go go to 711 Buy a bunch of lottery tickets, stick it on a wheel of fortune, and then when they do something, they get to spin it and then they win the thing. And they love that.

Tony Canas: 28:29

And the funny thing is you'll spend less right?

Craig Pretzinger: 28:34

scratcher.

Tony Canas: 28:36

You have to you have to, you have to pay well enough to begin with. Right? So so we have to be able to pay rent, which is getting stupid, expensive. We have to be able to cover student loans, same story, right, we have to be able to make a decent living, otherwise, you're gonna lose us anyway. But beyond that, most of us are not particularly money driven. We're mission driven, and we're fund driven. We're work life balance driven. And by the way, you can enjoy a game, you have to keep mixing it up. It can't be the same game. So honestly, I like like, get a platform that does all that for you. There Boomer agency principles, don't read another sales book read reality is broken. And you'll understand why communication is so

Craig Pretzinger: 29:23

broken. I agree. Reality is Broken.

Tony Canas: 29:28

By a communication researcher, she happens to be a woman which is really interesting, because most gamers are men. But But yeah, absolutely fantastic. Interesting stuff when it goes back in history. How games have always been a powerful way to whatever people and now we just have the technology to do it really, really well.

Jason Feltman: 29:43

Any technology in particular that you've seen that's just dominates.

Tony Canas: 29:48

There's a million options. Basically, I had one of my podcasts was recently I don't think it's gone live yet. I don't even remember the name. But Botha Yeah, they're like I'm not too worried about which platform but you You've got to make it interesting you got to make it fun especially for the hard things like in the call a cold prospect