SPEAKER_04 0:00

Manny Keen, welcome to the pod.

SPEAKER_02 0:03

Love it. Thank you, Jason. I'm so excited to be here.

SPEAKER_03 0:06

We got, we, we got the fluff. That's legit. That's it.

SPEAKER_04 0:31

Because what you've done for me personally, uh, with my business and my family has had such a huge impact. And I think that this is something that uh this is a topic that I think every entrepreneur needs to get into, which is understanding.me.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

Yes. Yes, yes. I'm so grateful that you have been coachable and open to this conversation. And people like our friend Russell Brunson has been open to this conversation because it's it's needed not only now, today, and tomorrow. It was needed yesterday. It's needed for a while, but now with what's happening with AI, and if we want to geek out in that conversation as well, it's going to be not like a bonus or a cutting edge. It's going to be like water and air. It's, it's, you're not going to be able to function as a business if you don't understand who you are and who other people are.

SPEAKER_04 1:28

A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

With what's happening with technology and speed. And it's it's exciting to me because I see the the uh like the spiritual, emotional benefits to that. And so that makes me happy. And I I I want to hopefully inspire people to get on the bandwagon before they're forced.

SPEAKER_04 1:50

Love it. And this is gonna be such an important conversation. But before we dive into that, who is Mandy Keen? Why, why are you an expert? What have you been through?

SPEAKER_02 1:59

My goodness, man, who is Mandy Keen? I am someone who I didn't know who I was and grossly misunderstood, you know, in junior high, got bullied. My mom was a real estate agent who moved around a lot and I didn't want to go to school because kept getting bullied and ate my lunch in the in the bathroom. I think there's like a scene in in um the Lindsay Lohan movie where she's eating her lunch in the bathroom. And I'm like, yeah, I did that. And I'm very grateful that I have an eccentric mother who was into self-help and she brought home Tony Robbins. And he was the first self-help voice that I listened to because all the other ones I thought were so boring. And if you've listened to Tony, you know, he's he's very captivating. And, you know, at 13 years old, I got hooked and I became this like Tony Robbins nerd because he helped me through junior high and high school. And I started applying some of the things that he taught. And it helped me build rapport with people, helped me build my confidence. And then I like my story is like a high school testimonial. I went from being bullied and eating my lunch in the bathroom to being a cheerleader, a lead-in-the-school play, and the student body president, and having so much friends and having like the time of my life. And so then I was like, oh my gosh, I really drank the Kool-Aid. And it did, it did ruin me for college. I went to college, but I was like, this is not fun. And I ended up opting out of college and traveling around the world with Tony. And then I'm so grateful and I feel very blessed that one of my cards, if you will, I feel like we all have cards. Like some of us have like awesome cards. And some of us are like, oh man, that sucks. You have that card. But one of my awesome cards, and I do have a I do have that sucks cards too. But one of my awesome cards is I got to discover one of my gifts and one of my passions at a very young age because of my um involvement with Tony. And when he opened up the coaching department, um, I became a coach at 21 years old. And um, and I learned about assessments and that changed my life. And now I'm uh 46, which feels weird to say. Uh, and I look at my life, you know, for the past 25 years, being a coach and using personality assessments is it's been a game changer for me and not only understanding myself, but my loved ones and my clients. And so I'm so excited to raise more awar awareness and to inspire more people to apply this conversation.

SPEAKER_04 4:48

I love it. And you've worked with some of the biggest ballers in the business, really, right? Like you've worked with some.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

Yeah, yeah. The the um I don't know if you ever saw the documentary The Secret.

SPEAKER_04 5:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

You know, it's funny is um, I won't name names, Jason, but I've worked for with a lot of uh the people that were on that, and it's funny because I was like, oh, come on, because I knew like I know some of their backstory. I mean, they're still brilliant, right? But we're all human. And that's a funny thing about this industry, is it usually only shows kind of like social media, it only shows the the pretty, shiny parts, and it doesn't show like the human, messy parts.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:28

But I have been very blessed to work with some very, like you said, baller, successful, famous people. I'm most proud of my relationship with Russell Brunson, not because of his success, but because of who he is. Because so many people, they just don't have the bandwidth to have heart and character. And I've just learned to accept that's who that human being is on this path. That's the character in the movie they're playing. That's cool, right? Cool, you're playing that character. I don't want to be in your scenes anymore. I want to be in scenes with people who really love people and care, as a little corny as that may sound. And when I have been working with Russell, it's been so refreshing because very few in this industry do.

SPEAKER_04 6:16

Yeah. And you've seen, like you said, you've seen the ugly side of a lot of these people, right?

SPEAKER_02 6:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:21

What's the difference between the with the high achievers? What's the difference between the ones that handle it all really well and the ones that don't?

SPEAKER_02 6:30

Self-awareness. Self-awareness. The ones that handle it really well are aware of their stuff. They're aware of their wound. You know, it's it's like, it's kind of like um, you ever see those movies where, you know, my dad loves Westerns, I don't like Westerns, but I'll I'll I'll humor him sometimes, you know. He thinks that everyone will like what he likes. I've tried to explain it to him, but he, you know, I'm like, this is so boring. But I've, you know, in Westerns where they they they, you know, the they shoe someone with an arrow and you see someone like get shot with an arrow. And if you've ever seen like a movie scene or a TV scene where they have to pull the arrow out and, you know, right, and it's painful. What I've seen is that the people who are really successful and enjoying the ride, they know where their arrows are at and they know that they need to get them taken out. And they know that that's their responsibility. So they know, oh yeah, I got this wound. I got this wound. I'm very aware of it. I know I need to get it taken out. Whereas the ones that hurt other people, and I used to judge, you know, I've gone through my own journey and I used to um be more on the self-righteous side of, oh, I can't believe they did that, and I can't believe, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

And now I've deliberately studied compassion because I wanted to have more compassion for myself, more compassion for people I care about. Now I understand that the the ones who are really, really successful, but they're miserable. And let's say, you know, they treat their staff like crap, they cheat on their spouse. Let's say they're doing this and we could judge them and we could go, oh, they're bad. I don't see that anymore. I see them as a very wounded human being, you know, and it's like that saying, hurt people hurt. And they're just, they're not conscious of how their pain is impacting people around them. They're really not aware. Whereas the other ones who are really successful and happy, they're aware. Now, the people who struggle, that's a different, that's a different story. That's a different answer, I would give you.

SPEAKER_04 8:44

But what about the people that struggle?

SPEAKER_02 8:45

The people who struggle, permission to dive really deep, like scuba dive here with you, Jason. Because I don't know how else to answer this without going like super deep. So, um, and this is have witnessed, I'm so grateful and honored to have worked with people from all over the world and myself and looking at myself like I'm my own experiment too, right? Like I got to look at me. That the more that I've worked on Mandy, the better I've been at holding space for my clients. Whereas before I got a laugh, like I put her aside and was like, I was gonna be the best coach and be there for you, but I didn't have that self-awareness. And I now I realize the more I work on me, it increases the probability of making a positive impact on you as my client. So the people who really struggle, part of it is self-awareness, but part of it is it is all self-awareness. And it's also they are usually going down a path that is not in alignment with who they are. And it's so hard to witness. It's so hard to witness. So it's what I and this is why I love assessments and why I love this conversation is you know, imagine. I like to use the funny example of animals because it makes it obvious. But this is really what's happening right now with so many people. Like this is very real. People kind of laugh at this metaphor that I use, but I use this metaphor because it's it's what I know I've experienced parts of it is imagine you were born a penguin. And for whatever reason, you got dropped off in the desert with no other penguins, no other ones that are like you. And let's pretend in this scenario that coyotes wouldn't eat you and stuff like that. And you hung out with a bunch of coyotes that are used to hanging out in the desert. They're loving life in the desert. And, you know, you might have some trouble because you look a little different because you're a penguin, but they're like, okay, you're you're cool. And they try and make you be like a coyote. And you're like, it's so hot. And they're like, stop, you know, Jerry, stop complaining. Stop complaining. You need to change your attitude. You need to do this because all they know how to do is to be a coyote. That's all they know how to do. It's coyotes giving penguins advice. And then the penguin is like, ah, I'm I'm stupid, I'm worthless, I'm not good enough. And we make up all these stories that aren't true and aren't accurate, but we don't know what else to believe. Because as human beings, attaching meaning to something like Victor Frankel talks about, we that we have to have meaning. It's like air, water, shelter. We have to have meaning. We have to. So the meaning that most of us attach is I'm stupid, I'm dumb, I'm not good enough, it's too late, I'm too old. Those are like, that's what we do. And what's sad, but also beautiful, is that actually keeps us alive. So thinking that I'm not good enough and I'm stupid and any of that, it keeps the penguin alive hanging out with the coyotes. But the penguin feels like crap, and the penguin's starting to die. And the penguin keeps trying and trying and struggling and struggling and struggling. And there's so many people who are penguins hanging out in the desert trying to be coyotes when they need to get their butts to Antarctica and hang out with other penguins. And then they'd be like, oh my gosh, this is so much easier. This is so much more like, whoa, like you still have, you still have problems. Like this is planet Earth, like it's not utopia. But, you know, my boy the Buddha says pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. To me, when you know who you are and you know why you're here, you don't suffer as much. When you don't know who you are and you don't know why you're here, sucks.

SPEAKER_04 12:27

Yeah, I love that. When I met you, I was struggling for sure. And it's funny because when you have a level of success where you there's there's never enough when it comes to success, right? You start and you're like, you want to make enough money for bills, then you want to make enough money for a little extra, and you start having success. You never thought about when is there enough.

SPEAKER_02 12:49

That's only when you know who you are and why you're doing it, though. When you know who you are. And I'm talking at the soul, deep, deep, deep soul level. And we live in a culture in our Western culture that makes it really hard to go there.

unknown 13:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

It makes it really hard because we're constantly getting interrupted. We're constantly, we worship speed and productivity like a god. The only way to get that is to be able to slow down. So, like what you're saying, you don't need to experience that when you get to this beautiful clarity of knowing who you are and why you're here. Because it's natural, it's nature.

SPEAKER_04 13:29

Yeah. And like you said, it's this distraction. It was crazy because when I met you, I was so b, I had been so busy for so long that I think my well, I know my priorities were just not in alignment with who I was. So a lot of the resistance that I was feeling at the time was resistance from myself from, you know, self-sabotage, you know, whether it was the relationships with my kids or my wife, which I thought when I started meeting with you, it's like, okay, I'm gonna achieve more in business. Like that was the goal.

SPEAKER_02 14:03

But it was why did you have that? Like that's so relatable, and I so appreciate you being open and vulnerable. Why did you have that as your goal? Like you looking back on that Jason with compassion. Why did he have that? Why did he believe that was the end all be all?

SPEAKER_04 14:18

The success in b business? Man, so everything from proving myself to, you know, little Jason in school that dropped out, or to my dad when I was young, or um, you know, like I had ADHD, uh, well, I do have ADHD. So I struggled in school. So it was like, you know, proving that I'm not dumb, or you know what I mean? Like all those things kind of added up. And so this was like, but there was nothing I wasn't actually proving it to anybody, you know. So at some point you're just like lost in like, I'm proving this, but there's no one that I'm actually showing this to. And then, but really it was when, you know, my family was happy about what we were achieving, but it came at a cost because it was all consumable. And then it was like, then they weren't happy about it. They were resentful of it. And then it was like, holy crap, like this is then there was like this tension because I'm like, dude, I'm doing this for you guys. They're like, no, you're not, because you're literally not here and you're not present and you're not connecting. And then that was like, that was, yeah, that's when I met you.

SPEAKER_02 15:29

I took so much courage for you to look at that. I really admire your courage to look at the truth of what was really driving you. Cause now I don't want to put words in your mouth or or overshare what I know about you. So but I think it's I think what comes up for me right now as you share that is how do you feel now about your future and who you are and where you're going?

SPEAKER_04 15:55

Comfortable. Relaxed.

SPEAKER_02 15:57

Relaxed.

SPEAKER_04 15:57

Not stressed out about it. Yeah. I'm not fueled by feeling like I have to, like it was always like a lion was chasing me before. And now I'm I'm like calm.

SPEAKER_02 16:07

Yes. Yes. And this is how it's so interesting. Thank you for sharing that. Cause that is how that's how the great ones are made. Most people are driven like the old Jason. And and and I believe you and I both can have compassion for him because he kicked butt, and that was the best that he could do and look at like he did provide for his family, and that's awesome. But you did something that I believe is so much harder than anything else, is you pivoted as you re as you paused and you looked in the mirror and you took responsibility and you and you looked inside and you didn't point your finger at your wife or your children, be like, You guys are just ungrateful brats, right? Or, you know, you're like, wait a minute, this doesn't feel good. And this isn't. And you were able to take that responsibility and do like something I know about you is you've done a lot of work internally. You've looked at you internally. And now for you to say like comfortable, like some some entrepreneurs are like, you don't want to be comfortable. No, don't say that word, no. But when I look at the big picture of why we are here, the only way to um master who we really are is to get into that relaxed place. It's kind of like, you know, I like to bring up my one of my best friends, Keanu Reeves. You know, I'm gonna meet him one day.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

Like in the matrix, you notice like when he when he got to a point where he relaxed and like and he like had his arms moving slow with the bullets like because he knew who he was, he knew why he was there. He wasn't like, oh my gosh, like where it showed, it shows like that movie is so beautiful. And I believe we all like most of us who are on this path can relate to his character of being so lost and confused and then scared and unsure. And then he gets to a point where that's what mastery is. Mastery is being calm and relaxed and centered. And that's where that's where the greatness comes in. That's when we actually, that's when you actually get inspiration that is actually going to serve humanity versus just yourself.

SPEAKER_04 18:18

Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I don't want this to be all about me.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

It's fun though. I mean, you I do want to say that if I may say one last thing, you're a great avatar for entrepreneurs because you're very your story is very relatable. And and you, and I don't say this to stroke your ego. You you are an example of so this inner work is actually worth it. Okay, so actually pausing and doing this, because it's scary, is it not?

SPEAKER_04 18:43

Yeah, and it wasn't, I wish it was that deliberate, you know.

SPEAKER_02 18:48

The fact is that you did it.

SPEAKER_04 18:50

Right. Yeah. Well, thank you. So understand.me, this is what you're doing. This is so exciting. And I didn't tell you this, but I just used it. I I um hiring a new employee and I had a bunch of people take the assessments on understand.me. So talk about a little bit about understand.me.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Nice, nice. Well, definitely share with me um very profile so I can help you.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

I will.

SPEAKER_02 19:14

So, understand.me, I'm so grateful and happy for this software. I gotta give credit where credit is due because you know, people are like, oh, Mandy, your software. I'm like, this is my dear friend, my my spiritual brother, Russell Brunson, created this. It was his idea to Russell Disc when I met him back in 2010. He's like, What are you having me do? And I'm like, just take this assessment, just do it. And um, and he took it, and and when I read his results, he was like, oh, this is like spooky. Like he was so intrigued, and I didn't know him that well, right? It's funny because we just did a webinar together and he called it like a psychic reading. I'm like, that's the best compliment ever. So when I read his profile, he he really got curious about assessments, and then I and then he had his wife Colette take it, and then I told him, this is where you guys, why you guys probably were attracted to each other because opposite's attract, and this is probably what works, and this is probably what doesn't work, and this is probably where she drives you nuts, this is probably where you drive her nuts. And I hadn't even met Colette at that point, and he's like, okay, now this is really spooky me. And you know, Russell loves like he loves to learn. He's a learner, and I'm grateful for him because he realized the value of being able to use this in his business. And now, if you want to work for any of his companies, anything he's doing, you've got to do an understanding profile. Because then, you know, he met James P. Friel, who introduced him to Myers Briggs, and then um, and then Enagram. He's like, he's such a visionary, and this is part of his strengths and his superpower. He had a vision of this is what people need. People need to understand themselves and each other for business, for relationships, for everything. And because of Russell's heart, no wonder he came up with this idea, and no wonder he has the skill set and the gifts to make it a reality. And so understand.me is kind of like Facebook meets assessments where you have your, your, your profile with all the top six assessments that are the most vetted, the most popular, and you have your results all in one place. And once you start to understand them and you're in this conversation, we're actually going to be training coaches on using this. Or you hire a coach that knows how to do it. If you don't want to be a geek like me, that's cool. But you use this, it saves you so much time. Like, so for example, in the specific scenario of hiring, as you know, hiring is so vulnerable. It's so vulnerable as a business, it's so scary. Um, and people can, in Interview well and they you still don't know. And I always like to give this disclaimer, Jason. I do because I've learned to give this disclaimer. The assessment results don't tell me their character, don't tell me, tell me their experience, right? So it's not an end-all be-all. Like, still want to have a resume, you still wanna, you know, do a background check, you still want to do all that stuff, you do. What this does when it comes to hiring is making sure for you as a leader, for you as the captain of your ship, that you're putting the right person at the seat of the bus.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:35

And when you're really clear on the role that you're hiring for, and you're clear on what is the responsibilities, what is like the superpowers, it's really then not that hard to know what assessment results would be like, oh my gosh, this person is lost. They don't know who they are. I don't even know why they applied for this job. You know, like someone like someone like you and me applying for admin. Like, why we obviously don't know who we are, right?

SPEAKER_04 23:01

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

So, or wow, this person with their resume, with their background, and this checks out, it gives you more certainty and and comfort as a business owner that, okay, this is gonna be a wise investment and it really decreases that risk. And Russell, may I share a quick story that Russell shares on hiring? Yeah. So Russell tells a funny story that I love is um, you know, he he was still learning disc. He knows this so much better now, but he was still kind of learning it. And um, and he wasn't, he wasn't actively using it himself with hiring now. He doesn't need me as much. He can tell and he can look at it. And but when Steven Larson left, he had Russell wanted to find another helper with funnels to be like his right hand person. And so he was like, Mandy, check out all these assessment results. And like these guys, I had them send in a video to apply for this role. And I'm like, so tell me, Russell, more about what you want. Tell me more about like what is the what are the skill set? What's like you were to wave a magic sword. I like to say that with men. You got to get a sword and then women get a walk. But um, like if you weighed a magic sword, like what would be your dream person? And he described them to me and I knew exactly what kind of personality it would be. And he gave me, I can't remember, but it was at least like half a dozen people. And Russell was like all excited, like, which one do you like the best? I like them all. And I'm like, Russell, none of these. None of these. I go, you like them because they're many you's. They are not gonna last. They're gonna come in. You guys are gonna have a great time for like five minutes, and then they're gonna quit. This is not who you actually told me you wanted. It doesn't match what you just said. If you want someone that is more details and systems and blah, blah, blah, you need someone who would never send in a video, by the way. Don't have them. The personality you're looking for would not send in a video. So you're attracting you. You don't want another you. This is what you want. And he was like, I'm so grateful for him being coachable because it's, you know, it's that he trusts that this is my area of expertise. And so he took my advice. He's like, okay. And he, you know, again, he didn't make it mean anything bad about him. Do you notice that? Like he didn't, it's like, oh, okay. Like I learned something. I didn't know that before. And then he shifted and he's took out the option of the video and had the people reapply. And I, um, that's how he someone also referred him, but now he has Nick Sanders who's been with them for years now, and he's perfect for the job, and he's still with them. And it's because Nick fit his personality fit the role for what Russell was looking for. And so I think that's a common mistake that business owners make is they hire who they like versus who's actually going to be good for the job.

SPEAKER_04 26:05

Yeah. And knowing a little bit about, because I'm I'm I'm that type of person, right? And every time I'd hire, I would be excited. So I'd interview somebody and I'd get excited, and they would mirror me and they would be excited. I'm like, this person is perfect. And then I would hire them and I'm like, oh my gosh, they suck. And then I think most business owners think like, like, like you hire this person, they say one thing, and then something else happens. And I think one of the reasons is A, I don't know if the other person is aware. It's like probably not you know, they they say they like, and for me, the biggest uh the biggest aha I had was when hiring salespeople. Everybody thinks they're a salesperson if they're hi, you know, coming in for a sales opportunity. Like, okay, yeah, I can make more money, sales, great. Then they come in and then they say that they're gonna be great, or they say and then you and you believe it and you hire them, and then they're they're not. So then I realized like I need help. And the first time I got into sales assessments, it was from a hiring company. And they basically used the disc profile, but they altered it to their own frameworks. But it was the disk, realistically. But it helped me so much understand the person because there would be these admin type personalities that come in, say they want sales, but they don't like to hear no.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:25

You know, so it's like, well, sales is like you gotta hear nine no's to get to one yes.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 27:31

Every day, all day long. And so like that made me open up my mind to assessments because I thought it was uh, you know, a little woo-woo at the time. But it also made me realize, oh my gosh, there's we could kind of have a map, like a guide, like an owner's manual to people and get a little bit of insight on what we all might, you know, look over because we're just, you know, excited.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

Because you're going so fast. Cause we live in a culture that that is like, again, we worship speed and productivity like a god. And so it's like slowing down, like hearing you say, you just made my day, by the way, when you said comfortable, relax. Like I'm like, like that's so exciting because I already know what inevitably is going to happen with you. And now you having the power of using assessments for hiring, you know, there's nothing that's bulletproof. You could still, you could still hire someone that is going to be a funny story later. So there is, there's always that percentage of possibility there, but it significantly decreases the pain and suffering that so many people and entrepreneurs go through because in interviewing, it's kind of like dating. It's their PR agent meeting your PR agent. You're putting your best face forward because you're representing your company or someone's representing your company. So that's like the PR agent. They're not gonna say, oh man, this part of our culture sucks, or this like, you know, and then the person who's applying for the job, they need to survive. They need to make money. So you have no idea what this person has been through. You have no idea how self-aware or not self-aware they are. So the assessment cuts down so much, BS, where you get to go. You don't have to, it's not about lying and it's not about uh people will just be honest in an interview. No, like people aren't even aware they're not even being honest. They're not even aware who they are and what they're and what they're good at. So you're you're becoming a more powerful leader by knowing even some people that you'll cross paths with. You'll know more some some things about them than they know about themselves.

SPEAKER_04 29:43

Yeah, 100%. And it's like there's I've never met somebody that said, I'm really good at hiring, like without having tools, right? So, like this is one of the tools that most people that would say that their team does better at hiring has tools like this. That it's not like they're going in blind. And most business owners, if they're honest, they're like, we're not the best at hiring.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:04

Like that's the general consensus.

SPEAKER_02 30:05

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 30:07

So it's like, it's like having that really cuts down the, you know, the margin of error with humans. Yes. Your point. And then also to your point, is the the visionary, like the most business owners are like a low SC. I would say most, right? Most of the entrepreneurs.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

You could, I would say there are, I would say that the SCs are in just different types of businesses. There are SC business owners, but they're different types and they build them differently. So they take longer to get off the ground, but they're usually like either inventors or engineers or scientists, but they there are some like, let's say, and this is where I love to geek out and why I like to put the combinations together. This is where, like, if you have an Enneagram three, which for people who aren't familiar with Enneagram, it's it's to me, it's one of the deepest assessments. And threes are like our our buddy Russell, where they're achievers and they're very driven. But I've met Enneagram threes who are high SCs. And so even though they're a low D and they don't like that rejection, but they got that three. So they're a driver, they got that inner tom-tom. It's like, gotta do more, gotta be more. That's when they're just going to look very differently and how they climb the mountain of building a business. But you are correct, in especially in our bubble, and I would say, especially in this very unique bubble of like an expert business, of you know, hey, hi guys, and like doing this, yeah. Then that is more of like a high I high D. But there are, I mean, there's billionaires who are high SCs who um have created tech companies and they're still driven, but they would suck at like sales. Right. They just did it differently.

SPEAKER_04 32:00

Yeah. And I think, I think the higher SCs would like, they would have a better job. They they they probably have some sort of assessment that they use. Yeah. Like that, that would be, they would tend to do that. Where it's like, that's where it's like the higher DIs, low SCs, you're not even, you're not even aware that you need to hire somebody that's high SC, lower, you know what I mean? And then if you did, you're like, I don't want to work with them. That's not gonna be fun.

SPEAKER_02 32:28

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 32:29

But it's exactly what you need.

SPEAKER_02 32:31

Oh my gosh, can I tell a funny Tony Robbins story about that? Because it was like, I mean, it was funny. And and I'm I admire Tony's ability to um realize, oh, I hired a bunch of Tony Robbins. When he when he learned disc, I think he learned this like in '98 or something like that. And he had a man by the name of Robert Alderman teach it to him. And then he had everyone in Anthony Robbins' companies took the disc. And then they did this whole mind map of the company. And, you know, it was really good at marketing and sales, but there was like so much chaos and so much disorganization. It was like almost comical. It's like, oh my gosh. I remember being in an event in Italy where all this stuff for Germany was shipped to Italy, and all the stuff for Italy was shipped to Germany, and was like, what do we do? Like all like the contracts for selling, you know, are in German and you're in Italy and you're ready to sell to a bunch of Italians. And it's like, oh my God, you're like, that's like the kind of stuff that happened. And one of the things that was a game changer for I know him and his company is he did a mind map because you're exactly right. What you just said, Tony's a 99D and 99i, low S, low C, and the majority of the company was very top heavy with that, and very few low S's and C's. And I remember Robert Alderman saying, you want something done, you ask an S to do it. And so like things were falling, falling through the cracks. And he's like, and you want something done right, you ask a C to do it. You have you don't have enough SCs. You need to have the balance this out. And that's was so fascinating. And it really helped him and his company. And it was also insightful for me as a coach because you're right, we tend to hire people who are like us.

SPEAKER_04 34:23

Yeah, and in an SC, hiring an SC is it's probably gonna end up a little bit better than I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 34:31

It might not get off the ground though, right? It's like that's where there's some people in inner circle who are lacking someone on their team that is more of that high D driver. And so it's like it takes all types to make it up and go.

SPEAKER_04 34:46

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:47

Just finding out where is your best spot.

SPEAKER_04 34:49

Love it. So let's talk, let's talk a little, uh little tactical.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:55

In a business. Uh so generally you have a visionary and you need somebody that's the integrator, somebody steering the ship. What should we be looking for?

SPEAKER_02 35:06

So I'm gonna be blunt and direct because man, love entrepreneurs and I also love their team members because I'm friends with a lot of the team members. So I see both sides. So here's the things you know you're a visionary when you have this obsession and passion. And one of my favorite assessments to also use for hiring is like the strengths finder, as you know, we've gone over that. I know you've met my wonderful friend Shelly G, who's an expert on that. And it's so funny with this integrator thing. The mistake that I've witnessed that's happening right now is people are like loading up this on integrator to like be someone that's unrealistic. And so what I've learned with working with different business owners is finding out, you know, what you actually, what, you know, where's your where's your vision and what you actually need. And usually when people say they need an integrator, what I've discovered in going down this rabbit hole is it's usually actually two or three different roles. It's not one. And that's why it's not working. Um, and so it's like if you don't have someone, you need to have someone. Like I'll I'll tell you a story without naming names. Someone it needs to hire like a manager, a CEO, someone to manage the team because this person is just not good at it. This person is brilliant. This person is like Mozart with their gift. They're so good at what they do, and they have amazing testimonials and stories, and they've got like already a little bit of a cult following and everything. Like, so they've got momentum, but this person who owns this business keeps wanting to hire someone else to market for them and then trying to like, I just want to hire someone to market and I just want to hire someone to integrate, right? And what I've seen for this person, for example, is that they the first person that they need to hire is a manager to help them hire, is never going to be good at it. It's like, you know, it's like Iron Man, you know, and he's in the cave and and um pepper pots, is that her name? Right? Is that am I saying it right? Gwyneth Paucho's character.

SPEAKER_04 37:26

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:28

Where she's like, she takes care of all the things and arms of people, and he he doesn't have the bandwidth, right? He needs to, he's working on being freaking Urman, right? He doesn't even know his social security number. I love that scene where it's like he doesn't even know, like he's because his because his capacity is just taken up. And so what I what I have experienced, Jason, with so many visionaries is they're not, they're not understanding. Again, it goes back to you understanding who you are. If you can be a manager and you do want to learn that skill set of managing and hiring, then that is a different conversation. And there are some people that can do that. And I've met some entrepreneurs who can do that, but they're a small percentage. Majority are what I call like the Iron Man archetype, where they are crazy. They're obsessed and they're gifted and they're geniuses, but they are also crazy. Cause you know, but it takes that to create. Think about this planet and what we're doing, and you're like creating something. So, what I have figured out that is the most successful and that it's also the most vulnerable, but if they're willing to do it, and we're not getting out of this game alive, so let's try it out. What you've done has not worked is hiring someone that is going to be the manager of your team because you, and I say this with so much love and compassion, suck at it. Suck at it. And you need to be left alone in your cave to create and to do what you do. That's what you need to do. And then you need to hire someone to manage and to hire and to lead. And they need to be free and they need to be trusted to do that. Now, that person can figure out the marketing and the sales and the and who the team members, and they can work with you and you have a conversation. It's a back and forth with that, and it's a trust thing. But that person, what I found with people who are really good at managing people, and that is what I'm seeing. That is what I'm seeing that visionaries need more than this magical unicorn of this integrator that people keep trying to get, is they actually need someone to manage so they can be free to be a visionary. And managers, managers are the opposite of a visionary. You couldn't get more opposite. They are all about systems and stability and organization. And they are, they will never do what you do, and they will never be you. And that's why you work so well together. And these are people who are you could say in the disc, like they could be an SC or they could be an S D or they could be, you know, uh uh a C S D or a D S C. Like they can have like some combinations. What I found and what I've experienced is that like on the Innegram, it's usually like um ones and fives are really great. I found because ones are like, yes, sir, you know, they're they're they're all about the rules, like follow the rules. And they are so good wanting to do the right thing. And that's what you need. For the fives are the researcher, and they're they don't care, they don't want to be in the limelight. They don't want that attention. And they, and they are so intelligent with knowing how everything works and how to put all the puzzle pieces together and and they're willing to, they naturally move slower so they can connect with the people and work with the people. And then sometimes, sometimes you can get a healthy two. But these are people who they value stability, they value, they value um uh a trust and respect for you and what you do, and they want to protect you. And I find that when visionaries have that, that's really the most important person they need. I call them like a manager protector versus this trying to find this magical unicorn. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_04 41:32

Totally. So I read EOS, and of course, that's what everybody's getting the integrator role from. And they are kind of make oversimplifying what somebody might need because at a certain level, it does need to be broken down into multiple roles. I think for me, what I've realized is that you probably need a personal assistant to manage you.

SPEAKER_01 41:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:57

Because you can multiply what you're doing in a way that's like part of multiplying what you're doing. And I think it's hard for somebody to invest in that, right? I don't need a personal like what what would I even have them do? That's what everybody says. And it's like, well, for me, it's like I'm not very organized, you know? Like, but when I am organized, or when it's offloaded, when I don't have to think about something, then I have room to be creative or room to actually do the things that I want to do. So it like opens up that space. And then if you have like an operator on your business, that systems person, then that person's doing the other thing that that needs the meticulous type behavior. So then you're multi you're multiplying the output of yourself and then multiplying the output of your business.

SPEAKER_02 42:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 42:50

So it's like, for me, it's like those two roles I think are super important.

SPEAKER_02 42:54

One thing that you just thank you. I I love that you say that. And the thing with the whole EOS, the EOS can work if you let go of the reins and you and you're about, it's really about finding someone that you trust to take over the things that you suck at. And that again goes back to self-awareness. So it's like, I find it's less about, it's less about hiring the right person. It's more about you being aware of what do you need to be spending. Like, think of you, Jason, as like a rock star. Rock stars need to be on stage singing. They're a rock star. That's who they are, right?

SPEAKER_04 43:34

Right.

SPEAKER_02 43:34

John Bon Jovi, and gosh, I'm dating myself, I guess. Dan Reynolds. I love, I love Imagined Dragons. Dan Reynolds is not setting up the stereo equipment for the Imagine Dragon concert, right? Right. Like, can you ever Dan Reynolds is he's gotta take care of Dan Reynolds so that he can sing the best songs ever created. Because I love Imagine Reynolds. Um, so you look at yourself like, okay, what is the best use of my time and energy? And I love what you said about room and space. And so the the purpose of your team is to create that room and space. And what I've found, and this is hard because everybody's got like everybody's unique, but is a majority of my experience in coaching entrepreneurs for the past 25 years, majority, I'd say over, well over 80% of entrepreneurs suck at managing. They just suck at it and they're never gonna be good at it. I've coached them, I've tried to teach them, but that's like someone trying to teach me to be good at being a CPA. It's not gonna happen. It's okay. You wouldn't be a visionary. So the sooner that you accept that you as a visionary and you as this inventor and creator are not meant to be a CEO, you are meant to, you're meant to hand off the reins to someone who is a CEO. So someone who, and I've actually seen other Enagram threes even, and other even DIs who can do this role too. So the personality, personality is is different. It what matters more is what is this person passionate about? And this person is passionate about managing and leading people. Just like you are passionate about your vision and your idea, they are just as passionate about managing and leading people as you are about your idea. And when you hire that manager slash leader, then you can be free. And that's what I say needs to happen before anything else, because the whole ELS, and I feel like that's good for a CEO. It's not good for someone who is this Iron Man, crazy, eccentric entrepreneur.

SPEAKER_04 45:51

Yeah. And it's an oversimplification. I mean, it it's basically a marketing. It's marketing, right? It's yes.

SPEAKER_02 45:58

Well, and they're good.

SPEAKER_04 45:59

So Wickman's like, yeah, it's it's it's is uh I mean it's I think it was I think it was modeled after old Intel CEO with OK KRs and all that stuff. He had the systems. It wasn't and then he just like renamed some stuff and so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:15

I like to I like to give examples that we can understand, like um, like, like being in a band.

SPEAKER_01 46:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:23

If you're the you know, it's like know your role. And I feel like there's there's one of the things that that has been unfair to a lot of entrepreneurs, it's caused a lot of pain and suffering to entrepreneurs, and it's caused a lot of pain and suffering to other people who've had to work with these entrepreneurs. This expectation for these entrepreneurs to be a lead singer of the band, like especially in this type of business that we're in, you're gonna be Dan Reynolds of Imagine Dragons, but then you're also going to be the manager who hires the electrical team to manage the, you know.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

Right.

SPEAKER_02 47:00

You need to sing the songs and and take care of yourself. So you have the energy to be the visionary.

SPEAKER_04 47:06

Right. Yeah, which is crazy. Super interesting. You know, you're you know it's funny, it made me think of um the Beatles. The Beatles put out so many good songs, right? And they put out, I think, 12 albums, a ton of compilations, ton, ton of live albums. That was in the span of six years. That's it. Like all the genius, all the different, you know, the like think about culturally and pop culture and like the look that they had, they changed so much almost every year and and reinvented themselves. And that's a good testament of to just staying in your lane, do what you do. Like they just kept writing, kept making music. And if they would have done more of you know, more in their business and didn't write as many songs, they would never have made the impact that they made.

SPEAKER_02 47:55

Thank you. You just gave me a gift. Thank you. I'm gonna be singing that Beatles example now. That is such a beautiful, powerful example. Exactly. I guarantee you, none of the Beatles were calling hotels and doing that and arranging flights and all of that, right? They weren't doing any of that. They were focused on, you know, John Lennon got many of his ideas, like uh the song Let It, you know, he got that from waking up after a after a dream in the middle of the night. And he and it like it came to him so easily. Like, imagine if John was stressed and he was trying to figure out how to manage me, we wouldn't have the song Let It Be. We wouldn't have that. I love the Rick Rubin quote. Like he says, I know that God exists because of the Beatles. Something like that. Like, you're right. Look at what they did in six years. Visionaries have this greatness they want to share. It's about understanding you gotta let go of the reins of what you're not meant to do.

SPEAKER_04 48:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:00

That's it.

SPEAKER_04 49:01

100%.

SPEAKER_02 49:02

I'm oversimpli oversimplifying it now, but it's true.

SPEAKER_04 49:06

A couple other rules, real quick sales and service.

SPEAKER_02 49:09

Sales and service, yes.

SPEAKER_04 49:10

What are we looking for?

SPEAKER_02 49:11

Well, for sales, so when I look for for sales, and this is something that I've taught my clients, yes. So why high D's? Are there's exceptions to the rule, by the way? I've known some high SCs that are low D's who can be good in sales. They've just had to really work at it. So if you get someone who has experience, but they're a high SC, don't discount that. Because I know some high SCs, there are exceptions to the rule. They've just, they're gonna sell very differently and they learn a different way. The reason why Ds are good at sales is a lot of, like you said, they like challenges. They eat challenges for breakfast. Whereas low Ds are like, no, challenges, peace, man. We don't want to rock the boat. So that's why high D's are really good in sales, but something that to make it even more powerful is if you know their values, you know what drives them. Because you get a high-D that is driven by utility money, they're gonna be even better at sales because that is sales. And and then if you also look at their strengths, if they have a lot of natural influencing strengths, then you're gonna know they're gonna be great. So if you have someone, I look at when I have someone who is hiring for sales, I look at their disc results, I look at their values, and I look at their their strengths of the top three. And then if they I obviously I love them all with understand not me, and then the Myers Briggs should just confirm it, and then the Inneagram should just confirm it. But the the disc, the values, high utility, strengths, they gotta have a lot of influencing in that top five to ten.

SPEAKER_04 50:42

Does steadiness have anything to do with that? Like to be able to no, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 50:47

You don't want to salesperson is not steady. Like, haven't you seen Wolf on Wall Street? You're like these like it's like the adrenaline, because it's like they're they're they're it's a very sales is more masculine, service is more feminine. Masculine is facing fear, right? And so it's that's the mass. So so you want a personality that they're gonna like that, they're gonna enjoy that, they're gonna want that rush and they're gonna just, they're gonna enjoy it. You want someone who's gonna be natural and enjoy it. Again, the penguin needs to be in the Arctic. So they are really good at that sales. Now, if you have a sales job that is more not so intense, it also depends on what you're selling and what your model is. If it's not gonna be like there's wolf on Wall Street, extreme in your face sales, and then there's more of the gentle nurturing sales. So it depends, right? Yeah. But if it's more sales service, then you can have like a softer personality. You can have more of a combo, right? So it also depends on your culture, it depends on what you're selling. So all of that matters. That's why there's not like a cookie cutter like perfect for everything.

SPEAKER_04 51:55

Yeah, that makes sense because go going to like the the insurance world, like part of a salesperson in our role is it's it is a lot of monotony and boring, and it's not high-ticket sales.

SPEAKER_02 52:07

So then you're right.

SPEAKER_04 52:09

So the higher S we've seen work better in the agency, where on assessments, they'll be like, they're not necessarily the best salesperson, but that you know, they they do have the sales traits, but they also have the ability to just stay on the team, you know, even if you have a rough month and you know.

SPEAKER_02 52:30

I'll share this with you that'll be um, and then I have a call I got to get to. One of the things when you say like they have a rough month and then they see them leave. Here's how when you've when you get a rock star and you get someone that is maybe I should use a different term if I use the analogy of rock star, but you get an A player, you get someone that you want to keep happy on your team. How you keep someone happy, whether it's in a personal relationship or in business, is you help meet their top values. So, what I recommend for all managers, all CEOs, all leaders is you know who, like you have their name and you know what their number one value is, and you help them link your company, this job to meeting that number one value, they won't leave you. They'll literally be addicted because it's like because it's like I your values is what drive you, your values is what gives you meaning. Again, what do we need as humans? We need to have that sense of meaning. How do we have meaning? It's our values. So you enter their world, and this is the mistake so many of us leaders make is we think other people value what we value.

SPEAKER_04 53:39

That is so gold.

SPEAKER_02 53:40

They they don't. They don't. So you need to understand. Oh, you've like I have a client who's he's high utilitarian, his assistant is high harmony, so she loves beauty, and she's really into the arts, and he paid for a trip for her and her husband to go to Europe to tour all these museums. Like, she's never gonna leave him. She's like so happy. Like he's like, he, because he knew that's what she would care about more than anything else. For her birthday, he finds out what art piece she's looking at was what and like it's like I am seen, heard, and understood.

SPEAKER_01 54:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:15

Right. And so he doesn't care about art. He doesn't, he doesn't have any, he doesn't want to go to Europe. He doesn't have any desire, but he understands that's what she loves, she needs. So he feeds that to her and he loves her because she's like the best and on it. And she gets, she tries to get poached all the time because she's so good. But he's like, uh-uh, I'm sending her to Europe. I'm giving her these pains, I'm paying her, like, because it's not enough just to pay. Right. That's what people need to get. It's not enough. You gotta get it's a relationship. So many visionaries go, ew, yeah. If you go, ew, then don't do it. That's okay.

SPEAKER_04 54:52

Right. That's solid gold. Mandy, respect your time. Thank you so much. Where should people go?

SPEAKER_02 54:58

Understand.me. That's that's it. Understand.me. We'll take care of you. Yes, yes. Go to understand.me and I'm on there saying hi, and I'll walk you through next steps. So awesome.

SPEAKER_04 55:11

Thanks so much.

SPEAKER_02 55:12

Thanks, Jason. Take care.