SPEAKER_02 0:00

Yeah, the craziest thing that ever happened to my insurance agency, at the end of 2023, I signed a a lease for $20,000 a month office space. And that whole year I've been planning on that expansion, you know, designing the space, getting the cubicles in, just making sure everything was ready. I was thinking huge, you know. And then the week before I was gonna get the new keys, I have a meeting with the reps from the previous captive carrier I was working with. And they told me that we're just gonna non-renew, you know, six million dollars worth of your book. And in a span of six months, because these are six months policies. So right when I moved in that same month, we had 800 non-renewals per month. So yeah, my name is Dan Kidajima, and I'm an insurance dude.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

Boom, boom, we dial, we got the fluff, no, no script, just real world stuff. That's the tip, a little stuff, a lot of the insurance dude. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

There's a lot to unpack there, a lot to unpack. So I'm gonna start with some easy stuff. Yes, I'm really excited about this episode. And I think a lot of our listeners will be too, especially the captives out there. We have a lot of captive listeners that have gone through some similar experiences, like Dan has, probably not as as gnarly, I would say, right? Like that's a gnarly. Maybe maybe some of us in California, maybe some of us in California. But Dan did something that I think a lot of captive agents wish that they would do, or have thought about, or have dreamed about, maybe, or just have said in groups, but Dan went for it. And so stick around because this episode is gonna get incredible. And uh, we're so excited to have you on the show, Dan.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

No, thanks for having me back, guys. It's been we've done this a few times, and I've always loved working with you guys. So it's always great to be back and uh, you know, hang out with you guys again. Yeah, love it. You go, Craig. Did you say 20 yeah, you know, I was thinking huge, you know, and I still have the space here, you know, signed yeah, you know, seven-year lease, and uh we went from we doubled the size basically of our office. Because you were gonna go big. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 2:18

Before you were you were at the you were at this point where you're gonna go all in. You're like, that's it, I'm ready to blow it up, I'm gonna go nuts. And then you have the meeting, that was like the gut punch.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

Yeah, I mean, things were going pretty good at that time, you know, 2022, 2023, you know, uh right off COVID. We were selling policies and we were breaking records, and I was just thinking great, but you just never know what the Department of Insurance has in mind and also what the carrier has in mind, what they're going through. Well, I kind of, you know, looking back at it, I should have saw the signs, but I was just uh optimistic and um, you know, that's still me. You know, I still think positive. That's kind of what you know, entrepreneurs we kind of do sometimes get a little too optimistic to a point of delusion. And uh, but that's a lesson I learned. But uh yeah, that was a situation I found myself in. How big was the total book around uh 17 million? So it was about a third of it.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

That's incredible. It's through that. Like I I I want to kind of like, what are you thinking? What are the different plans that you have at that moment? What's going through your head?

SPEAKER_02 3:23

Well, yeah, um, I worked hard for those clients. I I almost feel like, you know, we we paid a lot of commission for those clients. So I bought a lot of leads for those clients to obtain those clients. So part of me is thinking, like, hey, and I almost feel like there's an obligation for me to like, hey, like you guys trusted us to get your insurance. I don't want to just drop them, right? And not be there for them. So part of like, I felt like obligation to like be there for my clients. And the thing that worked out, which I appreciate, and I know this is different for all captive carriers, is that mine lets us get appointed with other carriers if it doesn't qualify with the main carrier. So that actually opened up the door for me to be in this position that I am now. Prior to then, you know, and a lot of agents do this with commercial policies, but we're mostly a personalized uh agency. So at that point, I said, hey, I gotta start finding carriers for this agency. I mean, that's what the carrier actually told me to do. Like, hey, they even gave me some contacts that said, hey, contact this carrier. Most of this was non-standard stuff. So, like, hey, contact this carrier, and then you could get appointed with them, and then you could start rolling these carriers to these carriers. And I really got the first taste of like getting appointments by myself, you know, charging broker fees. It was just everything was brand new to me. But that experience made me learn that type of business while I was still had my appointment with the main captivate carrier.

SPEAKER_03 4:43

So, was your intention to go sort of hybrid where you were gonna have those relationships that they recommended or or said that you know you could go have, which seems like a really good idea. I mean, it just seems like a good idea for a carrier that's gonna stop letting a person sell products to then replace it.

SPEAKER_02 5:00

Seems like a good idea for the And potentially come back too, you know, when the timing is right. So it wasn't really my intention. Like I just loved the captive carrier I was with at that time, and it had I had a good enough closing ratio. It had, you know, prefer standard, uh non-standard products there. So I I felt like everything was fine, like the compensation was great. So it wasn't really my intention to like be where I'm at here. I it just kind of like I was forced into it. Like I had to force getting the into into these carriers because yeah, my thought process was always like, okay, what can I do for my customers? And what can I do for my producers too? So it just I never really thought I'd I'll become an independent agency because everything was just so fine. But then once I started learning a little bit more, again, I felt it was just kind of like it's funny how life works. You know, you kind of like just things are just happens like without just by um not not with intention, but just through like circumstances.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

Yeah. So what were you what were you able to save?

SPEAKER_02 5:58

Like how many You know, most of it, most of it we had a pretty good CRM system, you know, that I I designed, you know, with communication going out based on non-renewal dates, and these other carriers, there even though California was going through a difficult time at that time, some of these non-standard companies, they actually wanted to write. And that's one thing that I learned too. Like, hey, like every insurance company is different, you know. Uh some may be in a situation where they're like just don't want anything and actually want to reduce risk in this state. And some carriers, you know, new ones are like, look at that as an opportunity, be like, hey, this is our time to grow. This is the time we could get aggressive, this is time for us to like have actual incentives. I was like, wow, this is so different. How each carrier is so different within the same market here. So these non-standard carriers, they're um reporting me. They were like, you know, thankful for the business we're bringing in and you know, g giving out additional incentives that I've just learned about. And um, you know, uh thankfully, due to the appointments really saved us, you know. So out of out of all, I will say not all of them, but uh 75%. You know, I wish I had the the data on that, but my intuition is probably like 60 percent, 80 percent. We had a good relationship with our customers and we told them, hey, we're gonna non-renewable, we already have this ready for you.

SPEAKER_03 7:12

It wasn't that right we were able to retain, you know, help them not have to make the decision, right? Like, here you go. There's bad news, but we have great news because we can put you over here. Yep. And I think so then you started seeing, oh, wait, this isn't much different. And I have this stuff over here, but I could just make all of it. Is that what it was? It was just like, well, this seems like a just an easier path to manage if I have it all here. Or did you see that you couldn't like doing the shifting the business over to the other to the independent side or the channels that you had there, that it it just wasn't gonna make up for the loss unless you were able to commit all the way? What was the the defining decision?

SPEAKER_02 7:54

Well, um it wasn't easier because there's a lot of guidelines with each carrier to learn and different like systems to go to and learning the radar and then you know, underwriting guidelines. It's not all in like one place.

unknown 8:06

Right.

SPEAKER_02 8:07

So it's a lot of learning curve there. I think think the deciding factor is when because if I'm still with a c captive carrier, I still have to go through them first. And if they decline or not renew, then I can write with the other carriers. Uh-huh. So if I let go of the captive carrier appointment, I could just write with all the carriers I have due to anything, due to pricing, you know, not due to eligibility. So it worked well with like, you know, having the captive as a preferred carrier and all the other ones as non-standard. But if I wanted to kind of get into the standard and preferred market for the for the independent, then I couldn't have that captive carrier relationship because I would have to honor that contract, like having to go through them first. And now once that captive carrier started wanting to write more business and or accepting more businesses, then my independent side would I wouldn't be able to offer. But it was weird because in my back of my mind, I was like, well, this carrier actually has is a better fit for them price-wise. You know, when it comes to insurance, price matters for our customers.

SPEAKER_04 9:06

Right.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

And I felt like uh again, thinking about the customer first, I was like, hey, as an agency, we'll actually be doing more of a service to our customers if I could just say, like, hey, this is the best price we could give you. Not because, hey, we had to go through, you have to get this one first, and if you don't get it, then I can't help you. So I did a little bit of the math, and I think it's just um closing ratio, but that that was a big decision uh factor, and then also revenue, commission plans and broker fees and things like that. And I I saw it side to side, and even though it really hurt me to um let go of that book of business I've built for 17 years, I said, hey, it's like, it's like I'm not getting younger, you know. So it's like if I were to do it, it's just just now's the time because I felt like I was kind of like half pregnant. You know, I was kind of like, you know, all the time I was like thinking like what what am I gonna do, you know? So I just said, hey, you know, I just have to uh pull the cord here. But I felt like I was ready and I'm really grateful for the experience there that I had with that captive care because, you know, I I I I didn't know how to be a business owner when I first started. Like I kind of needed that that brand's backing, I felt like. Like I just like, I just I couldn't really stand on my own when I first started. But 17 years later, you know, you kind of like know the game, like marketing game. And it taught me so much how to hire people and like, okay, now I could like, I feel like, I feel like a grateful like kid, like, and they're the parent. Like they, they, they raised me to the point where I could, I truly feel like I'm like, okay, I'm really on my own now. But they helped me get to this point. Like, I'm like a teenager that's about to move out of my parents' house.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

I love it. That's such a good analogy. I have a couple questions on what you just said. So I would like to, what are we talking with the broker fees too? What what what were the the determining factors? Like, what's the swing between captive and independent? And then also what is that same swing when it comes to closing ratios?

SPEAKER_02 10:55

Yeah, well, the swing is huge where I mean, first of all, we don't we don't charge broker fees as captive agents. Okay. So a lot of times when you're we're not selling policies ourselves, we're having producers sell it for you, then a lot of the um revenue or the profits, I should say, comes from renewals, you know, afterwards. It's just a long-term investment. Like you purchase a lead, you purchase, you know, you pay your producers, you're not really making that much money on off front. Right. Now, if you could charge a two hard hour broker fee when you first sell a policy, then the cash flow problem really, really, really, really gets a lot better. And you don't have to wait for the first on that. That's like straight to your bank account. You just boom, it's just like right there, you know, as as you charge it. So that was an eye-opener. I said, wow, this revenue stream is something that I never really understood because I've never been exposed. I didn't know how it even worked. And then um, before we get into the closing ratio, Jason, yeah, just comp plan by itself, like the the percentages, you know, because we're at the at the captive, you know, uh carrier. There was a lot of um, you know, variable comp. It was and it really made a big difference. And then also we had to really focus on other lines of business we weren't that strong at, you know. And it just was like we were always thinking, like, man, we gotta write like this and that. And it's like it didn't really h help. I kind of like to be a one-trick pony, like do something and do repeatedly and just scale that, you know, and it and it 100%. And it was we had to go out and write some policies that we weren't comfortable with and it just kind of like slowed down, like, you know, we because each product requires like its own marketing campaign to me. And then we would just try to cross out and we would get by and we hit we hit those numbers. Um but then the renewal comp started really getting confusing and it really would sway. So not so much on the new business side, because the new business side, they you know, they have some nice comp with bonuses and stuff like that. But on the on the renewal service side commission, it's nice to have like a stable, like, you know, set, you know, a comp uh percentage and closing ratio, yeah. I mean, again, you know, people are pretty price sensitive and it's like it's no secret, like the best marketing works where like, hey, we could save you money. You know, so it's like you're kind of leaning with that that and if you can actually deliver on that, because we, you know, when you have 10 plus carriers and you can just say, truly, this is the best one, you know, then then it helps. I mean, yes, it's nice to have the brand, you know, and I think certain buyers prefer that, and that's that's great. But I think where I saw where maybe my clientele, you know, was they kind of prefer the the savings, you know. It's it's just kind of where the econom the market is.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

Like, you know, people just want in your opinion, does the branding matter as much as it used to?

SPEAKER_02 13:31

Um, I think it defer did it depends on your market. Yeah, I think it's for the preferred side, yeah. You know, people care more about the coverage and they want higher coverage and things like that. Uh, you know, uh a good reputation when it comes to claims because they have more to protect. Now, if you're in the standard or non-standard style, not so much because it's just like, hey, what can I afford? Like, yeah, it'd be nice to have, you know, a company I heard of, but this is my budget right now. And if you could find me something lower, then I actually appreciate that. So I think it really depends on which market you're uh servicing.

SPEAKER_03 13:58

I'm curious on those on the broker fees. Do you ever get pushback from that? Or is it just a hard and fast, like I don't know what the rules or or what it is with broker fees? So I'm just curious how that all works. Because that seems I mean, that's crazy, right? Like when you all of a sudden inject $200 per policy, I mean that's a game changer.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

Yeah, it really is. And yeah, I mean, I think each broker does it differently. Our agency just has a $150 minimum. Okay, but if you charge more than that, then the producer, you know, there's compensation. So our average is about like $189 or so. But uh yeah, there it's just um when the customers, yeah, when they do get have pushbacks, then um, you know, we go down to the minimum, $150. But there isn't that like huge of a swing. And I think some brokers have kind of taken advantage of it and gone too crazy with that. But you know, we don't want to, you know, we we we we don't want to get greedy here or take advantage of people. It's 150 to 150 to 250. So they our producers have some wiggle room, but it's not um that's I give them the freedom there, you know. So it's like, hey, it's a big premium, it's like I don't want to I I'm not gonna make much off the additional broker. If you charge a little extra, it's not like your commission goes crazy. So they'll charge 150. And some agents like just charging 150 all the time, and some agents are a little bit more aggressive with that. If it's a smaller policy, go they go bigger, but it's just and depending on how much money they save. And it actually they can waive it and they sacrifice the premium comp to a half too. So I give them some flexibility there, but it's really interesting how it is like the wild, wild west to me. Like it's just like, wow, like you can just, it's like whatever, whatever, whatever you feel like doing. So um, but it's good to have some set compensation, set agency standards, and uh that way uh the producers know what they can work with. In fact, if they want to go over 300, then they have to ask me for approval because I'm like, why? So yeah, uh, yeah, there's really nothing.

SPEAKER_03 15:48

Like that funds leads right there. You know, it does.

SPEAKER_02 15:51

And in a way, because we came from a captive agency, we almost felt bad, and we almost used to say we don't as like a selling point before. And now all of a sudden we are. Like the producers were like, wait, like this isn't what we believe in. And I was like, Yeah. The way I looked at it is like, well, if they could pay, if they could pay us the broker fees, then in turn we're gonna be able to provide better service for them because we're gonna be able to staff our customer service reps, and then we we could pick up the phone calls on our first call. If our revenue wasn't good, then we're gonna be out of business and we're not gonna be able to service them anymore. 100%. You know, so in a I I that was a huge turning point for us for me to be like, how do I get not get rid of, but like how do I, yeah, kind of get rid of the guilt for charging broke because I was like, hey, this is actually for us to be better as an agency, for us to actually be making money so we could help out our customers in the long run.

SPEAKER_03 16:42

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:43

And I mean you share it with the reps too, yeah, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:45

Yep. I don't uh what I've learned over the years is, you know, the the guilt of it's just a weird thing that I think we all have, you know, in our culture about premium things. Like people think that prices are set, but they're set by somebody, right? Like somebody's making up all the prices and and then the values of stuff is all perceived values. And when it comes to luxury items or anything that's premium, it's like it has to, when you have that kind of revenue, you're able to do things that are premium. And there's a bunch of stuff that comes with that. Yeah, if you're ripping people off, you should feel bad. But like to your point, if you can hire a a staff that's gonna pick up the phone, like that's what they're you gotta do it, right? Like if you want to have that next level company, you have to do that. And I'm sure there's tons of brokers in California that aren't doing that, that are that have crappy customer service that aren't providing any service for for their their clients. And I I think that that's way worse than charging a little bit more and being there for your people, you know?

SPEAKER_02 17:51

Yeah, same thing with part of your guys' operation too, teledudes, you know, the the more revenue you have, you can use that techno revenue capital into technology and provide a better service for your clients, you know. So I think without uh you're doing a disservice not only to yourself, but to, you know, your your clients if you're not making money. Right.

SPEAKER_03 18:12

No one's on the race to the bottom of prices, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:15

And if everybody's penny pinching and you're at this like small margin, there's a lot of stress. There's a lot going back to, you know, when you were at the end of your road with the captive, I'm sure there was a I mean, that's a lot of stress because you're starting to get to those numbers where it's like, you know, there's very little margin of error to to mess with, you know, and that's that trickles down from the from the head, the owner, the leader, all the way down to your team, the way everybody operates.

SPEAKER_03 18:47

And yeah, you see the difference like because we talked to a lot of agents too, and you see the difference in like where I mean, I was I was in that place of scarcity mentality with the agency where I'm gonna wait until I have just a little bit more money, then I'll do, you know, and there was always wait, but it never improved without doing the thing first, right? Like you're not gonna get in a better position. I mean, my experience was I never got in a better position by waiting for it to get in a better position for me to then do, you know, the market here, then do whatever, right? You had to kind of you had to make that, you just had to go for it.

SPEAKER_02 19:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:23

Yeah. That's the ones that win, right? I mean, yeah, I remember that.

SPEAKER_02 19:27

I always thought, like, hey, next year the renewals will kick in. Next year the renewals will kick in. Right. It's never as good as you forecasted.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

Yeah. Right. So how long did it take you to get used to going from the captive model into the independent model? Like mentally and like just feeling comfortable with your team and everything.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

Wow, that's uh well, the whole process took me about two years where I had access to independent carriers. But I still to the very last moment. So I've only been uh fully independent for 28 days here, but we're we're about to have our best month ever here. So I think as far as new business, you know, a policy sold. Once I made the decision, until then it was like I wasn't fully comfortable to like the very last moment, till I was like, hey, I'm gonna do this. But once I didn't have that captive carrier anymore, like I couldn't log in. I was like, I got comfortable pretty quick because it the that was I was, you know, and and with and thank thankful for my team's adaptability, you know, they're buy-in, they're they were you know a big part of decision making. They felt like we could do this. They thought it would be better, they thought it we would sell more. So I kind of went off there, you know, and and looking at the data too, but I I wasn't fully comfortable till like I actually did it. But pretty s pretty soon I just felt like, wow, um, you know, I got comfortable pretty quick because hey, we didn't have that carry anymore, but we're we were fine. And and that I owe a lot of that to my team for their attitude, their adaptability, and uh their feedback.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

If a captive agent was listening to this and they wanted to go independent, what would you advise them on ramp up time and how long it would take for them to be comfortable with the independent side?

SPEAKER_02 21:06

Yeah, that's a great question. Uh, it kind of depends what which captive carrier with, because with my situation, I was a little fortunate because I had access to some of these independent carriers already. So that is a game I already learned how how to get appointments. What do they like want to see? Like what what type of production they're expecting, or like what type of um rating system do you need to have, or what kind of payment processing system do you need to have, what kind of like forms do you need to have signed? So I had way more of a ramp up time. So if you don't have any experience with that and you literally have to just start off with like, okay, now I let go of this captive appointment, and then I start with one carrier day one, then that would be a much longer learning curve, I would say. You know, so if that was the situation, but you still hopefully have some revenue coming in from the sale of your captive agency. But, you know, depending on the market too, if it's easy to get appointments, and nowadays it is a lot. more than a couple years ago. So depending on wha how the market is, what the market is doing, if the other carriers want to write or not. But in general terms, yeah, I would say, you know, but it's also like it's not it's not that different either. So if you're established and if you we're able to do it as a cat dip agency, then the only difference is really just the appointment process. And if you're and then there's other clusters and aggregators you could work with as well too in the beginning too. So a lot of different ways to do it. If you go direct then I think long term it's better. But it might be if it's harder for you to get appointments directly then getting access to cares right away might be better. But maybe the commission split might not be that that great so kind of depends on you know short term or long term how you want to set things up. But uh it's not as crazy or totally different because at the end of the day once you have somebody on the phone it's same pro the same product you know same you use the same script. So if you're really established as a captive I think I would lean towards being more confident than thinking like oh my God it's a totally different game. There there are a lot of benefits for the captive I could say and the one thing I'm I'm going to miss the most is the people you know going to the trips, looking at the leaderboard and then having that camaraderie of like hey like how what are you doing in this state I I'm in a different state like let's let's like you know let's talk about what's working for you and going on trips and then meeting people same people and just building those relationships. I do feel like maybe on the independent side there's a little bit of sense of like hey like you're kind of on your own. There's no like you know other agents that you like train with. So but um I think if you already have a base of like knowing what to do, what works in this business, then and you know who knows hopefully I'll be able to you know and I'm starting to you know network and get to know independent agents. And I think uh thanks to social media and things uh that gets us you know connect with more people I think that downside of being an independent where you don't know anybody and you're all kind of on your own I think isn't that much of a factor as I thought it may be.

SPEAKER_03 23:58

Interesting. Some good organizations IA I IAOA think about IS AOA like you have to put IOE ATIM U812.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

Too many accord format we filled out 8675309. What is your just curious what is your break even with your marketing that you're spending now per agent where is your break even point with policies with your acquisition costs? Are you breaking even on the initial policy?

SPEAKER_02 24:24

Depends on how many policies that agent sells because they get the base pay right so if they're selling like like 25 policies per month then they're profitable from you from the first from from month one. Yeah whenever you have a producer that's getting the same base pay but they're not selling that much that's when it really kills the profitability of the agency.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Yeah are you do you have all you have all of your agents in-house right? Yeah. What is the ramp up time to get to 25 policies?

SPEAKER_02 24:50

Right now like we we've been very fortunate being able to hire people with experience with license and stuff like that. So if they already have a license they've sold before elsewhere then they should be doing that in their their second full month.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

So you're only losing out on a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 25:05

Yeah. So a 25 policy agent for you now in your current low you know what as an independent how many policies would they have been writing when you were captive? Man probably half of that half?

SPEAKER_04 25:17

Yeah and you didn't get broker fees.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

And you didn't get broker fees and we would probably be kind of like leaning towards like hey do you know any friends or family that need life insurance? So we don't have to do that anymore.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

We're gonna hire people we're gonna hire people just to get like their referrals for life insurance it's almost like Emily and the last question of your interview how much life insurance do you have it's that piece of it to me for for captives is so bananas crazy because you're you're asking someone that specializes in one thing to do something totally in left field you know like why why not just let the people be good at one thing and then hire for that other and then place them together and expect you know have a certain expectation for each side.

SPEAKER_02 26:08

Yeah I think I have a theory of that I think when the captive agency's model first started it was kind of like hey you become an insurance agent and you sell your neighbors and people you know like people you go to you know you went to school with or people you go to church with and you sell them the whole you know the whole the whole product line. Now I feel like okay if you want me to sell like a life insurance policy then I'm competing with somebody that only sells life insurance for 20 years and that has 20 different carriers.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

You know yeah so it's like it's so much tough with the information age that people could specialize that like I I just felt like I was out of my league when it came to like selling real life insurance policies because that wasn't my background and there's my competitors are so yeah you're absolutely right Jason I feel like as an operation it's just so much easier to just scale when you just you're really hyper focused on one product one target market so much easier do one thing really well right yeah and the life cycle time of the sale you're talking you know follow-ups everything for an auto policy a full cycle of follow ups is no is about a month right like max but like for life insurance dude it could be three months to get them six months to get them to buy and then you're looking at three months to have the darn policy issued it's it's like mentally how can a sales agent that's that's doing all these quicker sales still have attachment to those you know like those policies that are that far out it's like it doesn't make sense it doesn't it's a bad flow to have both together.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

It's very difficult to be good at both at both. I mean I I I and to me what was tricky was it's such a harder sell but the comp wasn't like long term the comp wasn't that great. Right. You only get it for the first year. And then it's like okay now I have to motivate my staff to sell the life so I have to over kind of pay for that because how much impacts the renewal commission. So it was like it was almost like like a problem I try to solve with money and I just had to like overspend to get that one policy. And it really kind of like it slowed us down you know but I mean there's a there's a captive agents that does does a great job of that but that's really a highly skilled individual and those producers are very hard to find. It's a lot easier when you find a producer it's like hey I have just one product we have one script and just do this over and over again.

SPEAKER_03 28:32

With the right system you could almost put anybody in as a as a P and C sales agent right like if if you give them the leads if you if you provide the environment most people if they're if they care and they want to do well they're gonna be able to do it. Life is so it's so skilled.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

Now you got to get a license too so it's like hey welcome to our agency I know you could kill it here but now I need you to get this license and then I want you to like start selling to your friends and family this product and it's like they're learning that and then then they have to learn the new system to sell what their their bread and butter is yeah it's and then now you're becoming more dependent on your top producers who could do both.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

I just think like life insurance is a financial product that you need somebody that has a strong uh money mindset. Right. Like like I feel like I could sell life insurance to anybody now because I believe in it, I have it, I can see how to like make a ton of money for myself investing in it and how to you know what I mean? So like so like for me I could do that. But like you're talking about somebody who doesn't have life insurance doesn't have a financial background probably has some money mindset issues. You know what I mean? So it's like to get them to advise somebody else on their finances, it's like who's gonna listen to them and you know what that's probably what they're thinking too and they're right. Like when you have a life insurance guy that's probably has a bunch of other products too investment in the the stock market and all that other stuff you have somebody that's like more like a financial advisor that is a master at their craft they're investing in this stuff they're they're doing what they're selling that guy's gonna crush your your sales agents every time because I mean it's like you can't trust a plumber that doesn't have any pipes in his house. You can't trust an electrician that's you know what I mean they're not doing the thing that they're selling.

SPEAKER_02 30:23

Yeah and it's almost like two different sports too you know so it's like it's hard to be world class at both. And you're gonna if you're competing against another person that's you know only does that sport and they're pro at that sport then yeah pretty pretty good chance we're gonna get dominated.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

I'm sure you I like it when the two people you know get get the two masters at their craft together right working together and then the client has the um you know masters at two crafts. Like that's what I would want as a client.

SPEAKER_02 30:50

You know and that that's what the great captive agencies that are able to produce different lines of products they probably have special they do have specialists right in each line. I have so much respect for agency owners who could do that.

SPEAKER_03 31:03

I struggled with that we've talked I've talked to I've met life insurance you know at different things or whatever different conferences and and such and you meet life insurance guys they're like oh you're at PC tell me about that I really want to open I really want to get into that and it's like if you're good at what you do I would just stick with what you with that you know because that's so much more lucrative. Once it's set up and there's processes I mean man they could crush it right versus like don't don't try to open this thing up over here. Yeah I mean partner with somebody right like that I think that's the best synergy is just partner where you have both things right offering the solution.

SPEAKER_02 31:40

Yeah because we all know running a PNC agent is yeah different animal.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

Can I ask you some um some numbers as far as as your marketing goes? Yeah sure wait no go ahead sorry as far as so you're because I know you're you know you're back to um a smaller age agency I know it's big but it's big but it's smaller than what you had. But um so you're you're you're probably watching the numbers pretty well. What is your like like what is your thought process when it comes to how much you're spending on marketing per agent and then like the break even point and then like how are you how are you approaching that whole area now?

SPEAKER_02 32:20

Yeah right now it's kind of fun because we're more focused on sales now, you know, because once you have this it's it was fun in the beginning parts of growing a bit uh captive agency too and it's the customer service and uh retaining a you know bigger book of business is really where the money's at. But yeah it's right now we're very sales focused. The lead cost is very affordable right now. I I would say that um I'm only spending about $1300 per agent right now which is like the lowest it's ever been. My lead sources are Google and Facebook so I've I've I've dug really deep into that going direct. The challenge for me right now is more so availability of agents. The fear I have is like okay when customers call us or they fill out a form, we're not getting back to them right away. You know, then it's like I'm overspending on leads. I want to spend more on leads right now I want or marketing I should say but the challenge is I just don't have the availability especially on like later shifts with this business that we we get a lot more call-ins and people requesting for quotes and people wanting to set appointments like after 5 p.m and Saturdays and things like that. So availability is something I'm really looking into. So when I recruit for people I'm thinking or at least maybe quote intakers that's kind of like where I'm at right now is like how do I find agents that are willing to work weekends, willing to work you know later shifts and if I could do that then I'm I I want to spend more on leads. Like I it's actually there's I don't know if there's just more shoppers, you know, because the disruption in the market, the rate increases, the minimum you know liability limits going up and stuff like that. There's just a lot of shopping going around right now.

SPEAKER_04 33:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:54

So my my background or like what I really like to do is marketing. So 100% I think if that problem's kind of solved then the biggest constraint is actually producers and availability to handle the lead uh volume.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

Yeah it's it's funny when there is disruption and when there are rate increases most agents that when I'm looking at the chatter are complaining but I'm thinking to myself I mean I know just from our agency is it like it's almost like the sand at the bottom of the beach. You know how when you walk out to the water it kicks it up and it like causes the smoke of sand in the water and you know it gets cloudy. It's because everything everything's finally moving. Yeah. You know like all the people are looking for new stuff. So if you are a sales centric business you have a million swings at the bat, right? Whereas in a market that stays pretty that doesn't have disruption it's like sand that's already on the ground. It's hard to get those because they're solidified nobody wants to deal with insurance unless they have to unless there's some sort of pain. So the pain of the market changing is a benefit for those who want to have a sales first organization.

SPEAKER_02 35:08

Yeah absolutely right I think same thing with staffing too like you know if it's the markets like stable and everything's fine and you know retention is good and the agency owners then a lot of times you know producers are they're pretty happy where they're at. But but when these carriers are going through comp changes and all this stuff, that's when like actual like A players actually may look for jobs which sometimes they don't you know only once every 10 years. So when there's disruptions I think it is a uh an opportunity for those that are active and uh not scared to take action and to build a foundation when when things get better to be in a much better situation than when people are like okay now the market's better now let's start no like now you know you're already 10 steps behind.

SPEAKER_03 35:49

It's like waiting for it to get better before you pull the trigger. What's that? You know it's like waiting for it to get better before you pull the trigger. Yeah. You know you just gonna wait and then next month it'll it's time to do it.

SPEAKER_02 36:01

Yeah. Yeah getting getting started well never stopping is kind of like I guess the way to go. Yeah I think uh um yeah it's an exciting time right now especially with new technology and stuff like that but it's uh yeah it is exciting ex exciting time and that's awesome uh Jason that you really want to get into the numbers stuff you know that's that's something that I think agency owners really w need to look at at what point do you break even it's it was a couple tough years for us in California here.

SPEAKER_01 36:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:29

So I'm finally happy to be kind of turned that corner and that's one of the things that I would say too you know and I I just don't want to steer anybody the you know so much because there's so many pros and cons for both sides. But I will say with the independent side that hey if this carrier says we don't want to write full coverage cars in LA, all right fine. You know we've got another carrier that will want to or if another carrier says like hey these cars we don't want to take that risk in this area or this these type of cars or these limits it's like no problem you know I felt very helpless to the carrier's financial situation and their appetite. 100% and that's where I feel a little bit more actually secure going into the future because I'm like okay with this one carrier and we already had this experience with with with with one carrier just completely just drop out you know I had it happen again where it's just like no more new business it's like all right gotcha no worries you know we just keep it moving with the the other carriage that show up on the radar. So I feel even though it seems risky it's funny how I feel I'm in I have less risk now.

SPEAKER_01 37:38

I agree. I mean this whole thing that happened in California made me really understand what the relationship is with the agent. So like the with the captive agency your relationship as an agency is to the carrier it's not to your clients. Your clients if your carrier decides to screw them they're screwed like you you can't help them. You're not actually in a position where you're working on your client's behalf where if you have an independent agency who cares about the carriers you there's so many like you can you can sign with the new carrier tomorrow. There can be a new carrier that comes out that's better for your clients that you can sign and then switch them over without any kind of like hey you're fired or we're stealing your book or anything like that. Right. So like so then you become the fiduciary of your actual clients like you you become your allegiance is to your clients not to the carrier which is a relationship when you're in a situation like we were in that makes you feel better because you can do the right thing for your clients. There was nothing that made me feel worse. And like honestly I obviously have some strong feelings about it. But for a carrier to tell me that all of your clients are screwed and by the way you have to talk to them and then tell them that they're screwed and then not be able to help them is a crappy position to put an agent in. It's a crappy position to put your clients in. And I like yeah so you're spot on when it comes to that talk about more peace of mind a better relationship for you as an agency owner I would say that you know yeah like a way healthier way to go. I feel like we're on the edge here with Jason making a decision here. No but uh well no I mean also I I'm you know I I am in the situation that I'm in and I'm and I feel blessed like you said that you feel blessed for being with the carrier. I feel blessed for having the experience and everything that we've gone through. So I guess my mind is like on both sides, right? Like I feel very grateful, thankful for everything that if I started over again it would be a different I would probably choose a different story. But then again I don't know because it you know it went so well at the beginnings and I learned a lot.

SPEAKER_02 39:53

So I mean I don't think that there's a right in wrong necessarily there there really isn't and it's just really just based on each agent's you know preference you know I think um I think the not the the biggest fear I had was like well no one knows Kitajima like no one knows you know but the captive agent's name branding helps everybody's how would people respond if I'm calling you know because we do outbound calls too like hey we're calling from Kitajima insurance like people are going to be like no you know but it's it hasn't seemed to make that big of an impact as I I thought it would. So so far so good but I'm just getting started and I still have a lot to learn. Another thing I would add to you just another thing that I I thought was really interesting is that the the marketing reps from these carriers, they know you have choices. The way they kind of communicate and in the captive side you know the the executives there I had great relationships with I have so much respect for them but in general it just seems like they they are they want you to write their business and I feel a little bit more of a sense of gratitude when I do rather than like of something might happen if I don't do this or that.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:00

So they they almost know like they're in competition with you know other carriers that are independent. And I'll throw a wild one out there too. This is a wild thought I had and I think so in a way some captive carriers do this is like if they let agents go independent I feel like they'll get more what they want. A hundred in 10% I've thought about that a lot. Right because sometimes if you're a captive carrier you're kind of putting things in if it's isn't right the right fit because you know even if it's like a crazy price people will be like okay fine I'll do it. You know and it's actually risk that they actually don't want. And if they let independent agents write and I think in some states they already are doing that. You know it's crazy how like you're you're a captive agent and you could you can't sell with other carriers but an independent can sell your carriers and other carriers and get paid for that model then it's kind of like well you're gonna get an agent independent agent that's has a higher closure ratio could again have more higher revenue so they could pay more for leads and hire more staff and actually market more and they'll the in the captive carrier will now only get business that they really want from from these agents. So I mean obviously we're not gonna be convincing anybody to make these type of decisions but I'm just I was thinking like what if the captive agents just let independent agents write them then they'll actually have more agents representing them too. They wouldn't have this like recruiting problem I'm not sure if they'd even have or not if they want to have more agents or not but I don't know I just I just feel the I just I don't know I just maybe believe in just free market and just you know free economy and and and then just being able to as you were kind of mentioned Jason like a a natural intuition of a business owner is like what can I do for my clients? And I feel like that that's uh um very important for us to know that like hey what we're doing is um before customers.

SPEAKER_01 42:45

I think it's goodwill that you're I mean like it's the goodwill right like then the client can stay with the agency that they want to stay with and then when they are in a better situation they can be with a better carrier or if they're in a tight situation they can still set stay with the agency and get that care. You know and it's like you know with the CAC going up especially in in California it's like it's hard to keep spending money to acquire a customer when it costs more and more and we can't place more and more. That's the reason why the cost is going up is because we can't like the appetite has gotten so narrow that it's like there's so many we could help so many people, but we can't because we can't.

SPEAKER_02 43:34

There's nowhere to put them yeah that's where the closing ratio makes a huge difference yeah you know in the numbers appetite and closing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:43

Well Dan I don't want to keep you forever but uh this is an awesome conversation. I would love to check in with you throughout the year and just I know this is the very beginning of this and I think it's a cool gosh I I wouldn't say a cool story because you've gone through a lot but like I mean it's a it's a it's a heck of a story and to watch you say you know what I'm gonna go for this uh 100% be able to take your team and everything and everything that you're doing is so cool in that sense where it's it's it's awesome to watch. I saw I've been watching you on Facebook and I was like man we got to get him on the podcast because I'm so curious of you know he you just you're you're going for it you know you're you you have that drive that entrepreneurial drive and willing to take chances and you're going for it and I know you're gonna have success so it's it's it's awesome man.

SPEAKER_02 44:35

Thank you Jason and he has a shoe for every situation. That's right. I think um that spirit I I see it in you guys too you know I think a lot of times I see that with captive agents because you know if you're limited to certain things then you kind of think of outside things you could do and you know tell the dudes stuff like that where you have full control of what what what you can do. I've seen so many uh agents do well with like different businesses uh and that's something that you guys are doing and that's awesome that you guys provide that service for other agents and uh you know help out other agents because that way you know you kind of have a little more creative freedom you know so that's something I've always kind of wanted to do and that's kind of why I started making content too like hey I want to offer some type of service to my agents but again I I've I've been learning more about myself that I'm just like to do one thing. So much props to you guys for having that service out for the agents.

SPEAKER_01 45:24

Thanks man thanks man so good to have you yeah this is awesome man super stoked to be able to talk to you about this yeah but definitely keep in touch and then yeah you guys have to be on my show too one day like we talked about yes and so but before we take off let everybody know uh your podcast and everything that you're doing if they want to get a hold of you.

SPEAKER_02 45:44

Oh yeah sure it's Danky to Jima so that's on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram those are the three main platforms. So yeah if you yeah want to reach out reach out to me especially if you're an independent agent no I'm just kidding just just any anybody that wants to connect I I love just keeping touch and sharing stories about how we could win together in the insurance business.

SPEAKER_04 46:01

Awesome.

SPEAKER_02 46:02

Thanks so much Dan all right seeing you guys