SPEAKER_05 0:00

So the wildest thing that's ever happened to me since I became an insurance agent is that I opened my doors with my carrier in February of 2015 as a scratch agent with zero customers. In August of that exact same year, my carrier threw out a 60% rate increase in my state. So the vast majority of the customers who had signed up with me for those six months canceled. And then they threw out tons of limited guidelines to where it was almost impossible to write any new business policies. So for the first 12 to 24 months of my agency ownership were back-to-back-to-back rate increases, probably close to a hundred percent by the time it all evened out in those renewal cycles. And I couldn't write hardly any new business at all. And my husband and I were in the agency together. We had put all of our eggs in the same basket. There was no outside income coming in from anywhere else. And by the grace of God, we made it through. And here we are, 10 and a half years later. We are still with the same carrier. We are business is booming. We're doing phenomenal. And it's just a story of a miracle of a young 25-year-old girl who somehow made it through a really tough insurance cycle at the beginning of her career. And my name is Kathy Hitchcock at the Hitchcock Insurance Group in Rome, Georgia. And I am an insurance dudet.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Boom! We got we quote we got the fluffy.

SPEAKER_04 2:15

That was incredible. That's probably the best best told story that has ever been done on this podcast.

SPEAKER_05 2:22

No way. No way.

SPEAKER_04 2:23

This could be a while enough. It sounds like this is the thousandth episode, the way that this just came together. I don't know if this is season four, Craig. I am a dude. This this may be the first of season four? I don't yeah. That's above my pay grade. I don't know. The exact table that's you're just the owner. Yeah, we have what's going on around here.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

We'll figure it out. That is crazy. You know what? I love the story in the sense of a couple things. One is who has not felt like that at some point? I mean, especially if you've been around for a while. I've been around for almost 10 years, and there has been a couple times where you feel like you're the most expensive, that your retention goes down to nothing, you know, like you just feel like you're circling the drain, which wasn't too long for me, too long ago for me. But then also what's crazy is the uh just the fact that uh, you know, like having your all of your eggs in one basket, like that feeling, you know, being all in on this, you have nothing else, and you need to pull yourself out, which is crazy because it's also like a lot of our clients, when they come in, the most successful clients that come in are the ones that feel like that. They're like, dude, I'm gonna lose my agency in a few months if I don't make a drastic change. Those are the ones that have the most success because it's that go time. It's that like fire to the feet. It's either this or nothing.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

And usually you learn your best lessons through that period of time when there's no plan B.

SPEAKER_05 3:58

Yeah, your back's against the wall. You got to figure it out. You cannot fall on your face. There is, I mean, there is simply no other option. I remember finding out I was pregnant with my second child in the midst of all of that. And I thought, well, here we are. Here we are. Well, I mean, and this is it. Um, it is. It's a lesson. I look back on that. I'm not, I, you know, some people say, I'm glad that happened. It taught me this and that. I am by no means glad that happened. It was horrible. I cried myself on the way to work every single day, but I made it through, so it built my confidence a little bit in myself to let me know, like, I'm gonna figure it out. I'm I mean, I'm gonna find a way to make it work.

SPEAKER_04 4:37

I mean, there's seasons to everything, right? Yeah. And I'm sure that just before all that started happening, it was it was feeling like a pretty good, nice spring, you know, and and it was party, you're like, summer's coming up, we got some money, and then cold winter, right?

SPEAKER_05 4:52

Yeah, and you know, that's kind of what our staff have to learn the hard way too when they come in, is this is a really cyclical business. And until you've been through it, you you really don't get it because the kind of the notion coming into this is it's recession proof, it's pandemic proof, it's everybody's gotta have you gotta have insurance because you're on the road, you're driving, or if you have a mortgage on your home, that you gotta have insurance, but that doesn't mean that your carrier wants new business all the time or wants the you know, household. Joseph can speak to that, I believe. Probably so.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Yeah. Little California struggle. And the two the two things to that is one is you have to have build your book to the size that I mean, I guess that's the it's the whole premise of insurance, right? The law of large numbers. Like you have to have enough policies in the book to where it's like, okay, I'm losing some, but I still have some, and we're still being able to cross-sell and stuff like that. So you have to build it to a certain size. And you the other thing, and I just there's so many agents that do this, and there's so many agents that don't. But it's like in the season that you can that you have the opportunity to grow, take it.

SPEAKER_05 6:10

Take the opportunity, and after no, yeah, I was just saying make hey while the sun shines because it's like the human condition.

SPEAKER_04 6:20

Everything's great, I can take my foot off the gas, right? And then collapse, right? Because you don't even see it. There's such a lag, right? A lot of folks are always looking at the lagging indicators when, you know, on the other side of it, we need to be looking at those at the leading indicators, the ones that are actually gonna make the difference, like the activity, right? I mean, you could be you could be crushing it today and think, and I'm done, I'm guilty, and I know probably both of all of us are guilty. You're crushing it. Hey, you know what? I'm gonna turn the leads down, not get quite as many leads, save a little buddy, and then a month later, you get wham, you know, nothing. And you're like, oh no, what did I do? Right. It's a big slap.

SPEAKER_05 7:00

The reminder is is wild. I actually had somebody say that, and I don't, you know, you kick people will tell you things, and then all of a sudden sometimes you're just in the mind frame to hear it. And so I purchased an agency at the beginning of this year, and I basically doubled in size. I had a huge growth year last year. We probably grew well, I call it huge. We probably grew, and there was rate increases in there, but we probably grew about three million dollars organically with very few producers last year. And so I was feeling like, you know what, I think I might can go about this organically. Like I think I might can just really throw all the cash flow into organic growth. And then I started, you know, looking at at book purchases because we were doing so well. I thought, well, now's the time because you never know when that dial's gonna turn and like no purchases. And I remember the broker selling the book said, Look, you gotta buy, you gotta buy while you can because you never know, you know, when the higher ups and the powers that be who make these decisions will just come in one day and say, All right, we're not writing in your state anymore. Or we're gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_04 8:05

They could tell you that you can.

SPEAKER_05 8:07

Yeah, they can do that. Yeah. So you do I do. I agree with that sentiment, and and I am a big advocate for the people who are able to purchase a book and they have the staff and the the resources to handle it, um, as opposed to the organic, you know, route simply because they can they can flip their switch and and make a choice to, you know, change things in your area or change your guidelines or your rates at any point, and just having that cushion is a big uh just peace of mind, really.

SPEAKER_04 8:42

Kathy, have you watched, like have you kept your eye on the difference? Like, okay, you have your primary book that you that you've worked on and built, you know, blood, sweat, and tears, and then you you get the purchase. Have you separated it and then watched that and see what that, you know, is the retention different? Like, talk a little bit about that because it's not just you know, rainbows and unicorns when you buy another wood, right? Because now you took on some debt and the debt doesn't go down, but often that retention dips a little bit after the purchase. There's a little attrition and all that. So I'd love to hear a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_05 9:16

Yeah, I wish, and to be honest with you, I am uh a very rigid kind of operational type watcher, but that is although I did keep these specific two books separate, I have not kept a very close eye because we're running everything with the same team. I did not separate the team. So even if I saw that one book was having, you know, maybe some I don't and I don't think anything honestly is gonna be super different because I have the same customer service team handling both books. I have the same sales team selling in both books equally. And so I'm just kind of watching the right now, and I'm only I'm only seven, six, seven months in. And I did keep them separate for that reason, so that if I need to, you know, sell off one, I can. But I've got the same team running running everything, so I'm looking at my overall numbers, and my numbers are not bad, but I have very high standards, and we've always kept good numbers, and so anytime the least little bit slips, I'm kind of Georgia's just spectacular because your your rates are so you know, maybe it's huge premium.

SPEAKER_04 10:31

So, you know, we're in you have you have Jason, California, where it's probably what 500 bucks an item, and Arizona's pretty close, a little bit higher. I think we're getting maybe at 700 closer to 800 sometimes. Like 700. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 10:45

I didn't know that. I don't know what the other states. I know that Texas is a big, you know, talking point a lot, and I know Ohio is for the opposite reason that they have very low premiums. Um, but you would think with all this explanation to customers, why is my rate going up? Why is my rate going up? But it has. I mean, we have a lot of Atlanta is just this spot where I think I read somewhere that Atlanta has more interstates coming through it in all different ways. Um so there are a lot of auto accidents and the rates do tend to go up because of that.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

That's where my grandparents are from. Atlanta.

SPEAKER_05 11:27

Fine. Hotlanta.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Hotlan. Yep, hotlanta.

SPEAKER_05 11:30

Well, if you're ever out here, you'll have to let me know.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

I haven't been out there since I used to play drums touring with bands, and I remember Atlanta had a Del Taco. We have Del Taco in in California, but Del Taco's nowhere else. Now there's one in Tucson.

SPEAKER_04 11:49

What's that? There's one in Tucson. Now it's been there since I was at college. I mean it's been there a long time. Wow. I mean ten years it's been since college.

SPEAKER_05 11:57

So there you go.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

And I remember putting up the in our van, in our tour van, we'd I put up the placemat in there to remind me of home. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 12:08

Little little teenage boy not knowing what he was doing back then. And then there was no in and out anywhere else at that point. Yeah, now it's all over the place. A lot of waffle houses.

SPEAKER_05 12:20

We have a lot of uh cool holy dame.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

I want to kind of go back to that beginning where you were, I mean, I think we've all been there. Well, it's not maybe not as extreme, but like you're crying every day, you've started this new agency, people are leaving left and right, they raise the rates, the walls are caving in. How do you dig yourself out of that? Like, how did you get out of that situation?

SPEAKER_05 12:41

Honestly, Grit, and I know that's kind of cliche to say, but I will put my work ethic up against anybody, and that's what did it because I didn't even have a team. It was my husband and I opened the agency together. We had his sister. We hired her on day one as a customer service representative. We didn't even have the first customer. So she spent a lot of time doing telemarketing and sending us um people to quote, and we just worked tooth and nail, quote and because the I mean, you the close rate was very low because no one qualified and the rates were outrageous. So it was nearly impossible. I mean, I remember closing probably 40 to 50 items a month, and it probably took the work of closing for both of us, probably what would be three or four hundred items a month now, but it just we couldn't close. It was just very hard to close business during that time because no one qualified or the rates were, you know, too high. And honestly, just that work ethic. I do not I I hear I listen to a lot of business podcasts, and one of the questions I hear a lot of people say is, Do you think anybody can own and run a business? Like, can anybody do it if they just and honestly, I I really don't think that. I think that you really that not everybody's got it in them. And if you cannot, you know, kind of put your nose down and blinders on and wear ten million hats during the day at work while also going back home and then walking into your house and acting like everything's fine when you get home, making dinner, going, you know, school drop off the next morning, crying on your way to work, between school drop-off and work, and then coming in and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

So I think that it took it took a lot and it took a lot mentally, and it was it was very stressful, but so if somebody if you were talking to yourself back then, because I think a lot of people find themselves in this position at some point, something like this, this kind of like it's either all in or all out, like I'm you know, like like I'm gonna lose it. Like, what were the tangible steps? Like what what were those things that got you to the next level? And what levels were those that kind of like the stepping stones out into the position that you're in now?

SPEAKER_05 15:03

One thing I think that matters a lot is just having a really good support system. And I just don't think everybody has that. So, like if you don't have an A-player spouse or a good home life, it's gonna be really hard for you to go into work and still be able to put your best foot forward at work because the stuff that really matters in the thick of things it and right, you know. And that was one thing that I that I do have and have had is my husband and I, we walked in every single day hand in hand. Okay, let's let's pound it out. Like let's, you know, here we are. We're, you know. And we had a really great support system at home with child care. I didn't have to necessarily worry about, you know, getting my kids from school to daycare and, you know, strangers watching them and things like that. So I was able to kind of focus on the business by knowing that my kids were with family members and and uh grandparents and stuff like that. And so honestly, if I think if um if it hadn't been for just being in a really stable marriage, good home life, very peaceful life outside of work, it would have been really hard to turn on um, I guess, that mentality walking into the office because I would have been struggling elsewhere. And so that was that was I still I'll tell my kids, I'll tell everybody, the biggest decision that you could possibly make in your life is who you choose to marry. And it just matters in every aspect of your life. So that was good, and so it made made it okay. We were working alongside each other. We had his sister there, you know, there wasn't this. I think it also matters just going a step further than that, is be careful who you hire and don't hire out of desperation and don't hire people that maybe give you bad vibes, but you know, you you've you're just desperate, you know. And that's one thing that I've always tried not to do is like if I don't have a good feeling about somebody or I don't feel like I could go to dinner and enjoy my evening with them, then I don't hire them because I'm not one of these people that can just turn on one face at work and then leave. And, you know, I I really need to get along with the people I work alongside. This was 2015 and 16. Nobody was working remotely, or I we weren't at least. I I mean, there I'm sure there were people working remotely, but we were all in the office, and so it really mattered to me just having people at work that I could count on that I knew were there who cared about the business, and then having people in my home life who cared about wanting to make sure we were okay.

SPEAKER_04 17:36

Yeah, you gotta remove that drama, right? Because you get the drama people come it in, and you're just like, it just it just makes it straining. Yeah, it's drained. It makes you not want to go to the place that you own, right? You're just there, and it's yeah, that'd be like And you know, females are bad.

SPEAKER_05 17:53

I mean, I'm a female and I can say it. I mean, uh it females are we can't never say that.

SPEAKER_03 17:59

No, I would never say that. My wife is.

SPEAKER_05 18:01

I know, I can say it. I'm one of them. I'm difficult myself, I'm complicated too.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

I think every owner is though. I mean, every owner has that in them, right? Like the I'm like, we're gonna get there no matter what. You have to, right? That's how the first part of this, and even like hearing your story, is that you committed. You committed to doing this no matter what, you committed, like, I'm gonna make this work. And I I feel like I can hear it in an agent's voice when they might like come into our program or something like that where I don't I know they won't make it, where it's like they're not committed. They're like looking at other things, like, uh, yeah, you know, I don't know if it's gonna work out, kind of like talk, like the talk isn't all in, you know?

SPEAKER_05 18:46

Yeah, there's no silver bullet. And a lot of people think there are, and they try several things, and those things help. Um, you know, put a band-aid on it sometimes. But um the real I mean, like nobody gets where they are by just finding an easy way out, you know? And um and and then within that personal growth and professional growth comes. So it's not all for nothing. If we didn't go through th some of these times, we wouldn't really be like the business professionals that we are today. We learn a lot in those times. I know, you know, y'all have both had that. And Jason, I'm I mean, y'all have been through a f a tough few years in California. I mean, I you know, I know and you've probably learned and and kind of developed your skill set even more through learning pivoting skills and things like that, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

Yeah, well, I almost I almost sold. He was angry. I definitely had that talk, you know, a couple you know, last year and it was but yeah, I mean then I it was I had that coming to God moment of like you're either all in or all out. And I'm like, all right, well, then I suck right now because I'm not all in, you know.

SPEAKER_05 19:58

So yeah, and there's those moments too. You have to give yourself grace, and I'm not good at that. I am not good at it, but we have to. I mean, we can't beat ourselves up all the time, you know, and nothing lasts forever. And even if we did, even if even if you sold and decided to go another route, you've still got all this experience and you know that you've that you've learned along the way, all these lessons and the brand that you've built. So, but you're right. You you do have to be all in or out, all out because on the fence is really where I mean, that's honestly one of the most toxic places and and dangerous places to be is waking up every day and either I mean, I'd rather just check out and move on with my life or stay in and move forward with a lot of you know tenacity than wake up every day doing something different because then I'm stagnant, right? I don't get anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

That's how you go crazy. There was a quote, something about it's easier to be a hundred percent than it is ninety-eight percent, because the it that two percent leaves so much yeah, it just it messes with your head so much. I'm ADHD, so I need to either be I like that's how I am. I'm like, I'm either all in, I'm either not eating carbs, I'm not eating bread, or yeah very much.

SPEAKER_05 21:21

Yes, yes. But honestly, I mean a lot of professional uh a lot of successful professionals are like that and they have that discipline to kind of stick with it once they make up their mind. And that's what helps them, you know, be really successful. Is like you, I mean, you know, like you said, I'm either, you know, on this on this meal plan or I'm not. And you know, if you can hyper focus, ADHD can be a can be a really great trait to have in business because of the hyper focus aspect is what I've learned.

SPEAKER_04 21:51

Yeah, there I mean there's a much higher percentage, I think, of folks that have ADHD that are entrepreneurs, right? Number one, we're not employable. Number two. too. No. Right. We we I would make it worse. We'll go. Yeah. Like I like it. Shit. I'm doing this thing, right? Like you're a hundred and fifty percent.

SPEAKER_05 22:08

Exactly. No thoughts.

SPEAKER_04 22:11

Of relationships and things, you know, but you know, that's the learning part. We're all on that journey. I mean I my toughest thing and it and I think, you know, probably the reason I put here is to learn balance. And uh it's a struggle, right? Because it is.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

That's the flip side, right? Like you can go all in on your job, on your work, and you can become super successful. But then it's like, what about at home? What about with your family? What about with it's like, well then there's like too much stuff. And then it's like, okay, I need to learn how to be able to clock in and clock out at certain places. Very difficult.

SPEAKER_04 22:45

You know and I think also why most like regular the normies can't handle uh this this like doing this right is because you they want to check out they want to turn off turn off the noise and and just do their thing at home right whoop the whistle went yeah time to time to chill. And it's like dude I mean it's never time to chill I I have another idea and I've got to freaking write it down or go find something to put it on and you know so there's always something the the committee's always working up here.

SPEAKER_05 23:13

It doesn't ever turn off. I'm sure the notes app on y'all's phones looks about like mine because it's like I'll open it, I'll give it a little heading, type some ideas.

SPEAKER_03 23:23

We have shared notes. You should see those.

SPEAKER_05 23:25

Yeah I bet I bet. But also on the same note is um just on that topic is I think entrepreneurs have also have to have a little bit of OCD like obsessive because you also it would be also very hard to um run a a good business if if you're not kind of obsessed with it. Like in you know all the aspects. Like I want my customer experience to be great. I want my sales to be high I want my marketing to be perfect. I want you know the the development within my office to be on point. I want the culture correct and and like you said Craig like we're always just throwing these ideas around and what I've learned about myself I got on myself for several years about work life balance and okay I just need to you know go home and do that. And I realize that's just not me. I'm just not built in a way that I can just turn it off when I walk in the door. And so now it's more about like and I'm sure y'all have heard this more work life harmony. And so you know we take our kids on a lot of really great trips as I'm sure you take your family. You know that's one thing about owning a business running a business we're we're able to travel we're able to do some fun things but I tell my kids like look you see this place you see this hotel you see this resort like it's not free. So it's good the the sacrifice is I'm gonna have to get up and work for a couple hours in the morning before we hit the activities because that's just what comes with this gig. And if it weren't for this harmony we wouldn't even be able to go to a place like this you know and so I'm sure y'all ran into that too just taking your family somewhere like you're never just you know the whole time you're gone just this carefree, you know, forgetting about what's back at the office.

SPEAKER_04 25:12

I'm in San Diego six months and I'm in the garage because if I go sit out and look at the ocean the whole time then I'm just gonna sit out and look at the ocean the whole time. Right? I I need to be in here where the best thing is the computer.

SPEAKER_05 25:21

You know you might get inspired. You might have some really cool ideas hit you while you're out there just quite a bit too yeah it might spark some creativity and everything maybe in a garage I don't know whatever's your thing Craig yeah I mean I kind of like this garage being at work.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

So I I enjoy working I enjoy my desk I know that's weird but I do I'm kind of a workaholic yeah I found my myself in like 2022 or 2021 where we were doing the um we're doing this podcast we're doing the you know the the teledudes we were doing um our agencies and everything was growing and it was like so much stuff and we got this uh EOS to like kind of unwind everything right to to make everything um a little bit more streamlined and that whole process definitely like we figured out how to really streamline everything to where we we were not doing that much.

SPEAKER_05 26:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

So that's very interesting yeah but then I realized yeah the real the realization for me was I I mean I there's a lot of stuff I like to do. Even though I don't have to do it I definitely shouldn't be the bottleneck in it. It shouldn't be like if I don't do it, it doesn't get done. But I like doing a lot of stuff. So like my part of what I like to do is is work on stuff, you know, and I'm a builder. So removing myself completely from some stuff was not a good thing for me. I did not like it and it almost created self-doubt and like you wonder I I don't know like maybe through depression. Yeah maybe a little yeah a little bit yeah so I like I like being able to have the business run without me but I like I like working. I just do I like working.

SPEAKER_05 27:08

Well remember it's kind of like a hobby.

SPEAKER_04 27:11

Yeah a hundred percent I mean there's that point in in agency ownership where you're where you're doing everything and you're also an LSP basically right where you're you're on the phone you're talking to clients and and I remember when I said okay I'm not gonna I'm I I remember talking to somebody I can't remember who it was but you know another agent that was really doing well and I wasn't doing that awesome and I'm like but I work 40 hours a day you know I don't understand and he he's like you can't talk to the like you're at the point now where you can't talk to them. If you talk to them it takes all your time. You need to spend your time working on it right work on the business not in the business. And yeah like like turning that off was very difficult. You know like and I mean for even until fairly recently I think I still had a couple that were friends that would text me still about their stuff. I'd like look I I love you but I no you got to call the office like I I don't even know how to log in anymore.

SPEAKER_05 28:05

You have to have that boundary right like yeah but I mean it's it it is like no nobody died it still works you know maybe yeah maybe it's not ninety-nine percent or whatever you know wherever I had it it might be at 80% but I have a hundred right yeah if somebody can do it at 80% let them do it you know what I mean and then just spend go spend your time finding another person to go do it and let your efforts work on compounding stuff instead of the the very you know granular I mean hire other people to do the things that they can they can do and and you go work on the things they can't do that you can't hire out you know and contrary to our own belief we're not the best at everything. So we need to We would think we are I mean you're you know that's anybody around here and Yeah, I get it. We like to think that but there are people who I mean there's better sales I mean I've you know I've found people who I'm like dang I really like the way you worded that I never thought about it that way and you know you're like okay maybe I don't know it all.

SPEAKER_04 29:12

Yeah you let go a little and all of a sudden you start learning some stuff.

SPEAKER_05 29:15

Yeah yeah I agree and that's really when um I think when you can kind of start I was listening to a Grant Cardon uh Cardone parts podcast this morning where he was just talking about how you kind of graduate from salesperson to business person. And so the skill sets that I'm working on now and that I've been in you know kind of the trenches with the past several years, which I'm sure you know y'all are the same way is like you know this the sales stuff I'm kind of graduated from that now. It's not really what I'm doing on the day to day but I'm still I'm learning skill sets now that really help the business grow. And um and that's what I need to be doing and that's the fun stuff like you said Jason where you kind of you like to be doing it because that's kind of our cre our creative outlet in a way I think 100% the creative.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

I used to do graphic design and play in bands and I I love the I always hated business stuff. I hated school and and stuff like that. But like yeah when you when you start working on the business and you're not the bottleneck and now you can start looking at it holistically and like you know how how how can we move stuff around and make this work and what where can we take this money and and reinvest it either in the business or outside of the business and grow it and like you're just more of a strategic creative type person. It it's really fun.

SPEAKER_05 30:32

It is and it's challenging in a way that it's it's the same I mean it's the same ongoing you know challenges but it's also a new challenge every day and new things come up every day. And and that's why I really like podcasts so much. I think it's awesome that y'all have this podcast for insurance agents you know you're talking about insurance because you know we can log on to the business podcast but some of the stuff doesn't apply to us. We don't have a singular item that we sit on a shelf and sell, you know, so we need things that are very topic specific and particular to our industry and I love that you all offer this to the insurance community because it's kind of this little world that we get, you know, that we can talk to like minded individuals, learn and grow together.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

Thank you. Yeah thank you it's it's crazy of the intangibility of what we do. I mean we don't have inventory we're selling a promise we're not I mean it's a piece of I would say a piece of paper but it's not even a piece of paper these days.

SPEAKER_05 31:41

Right.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

It's a paperless contract yeah so almost everything that we're doing is all mindset. Like it's all belief and it's all interpersonal communication. That's it.

SPEAKER_04 31:54

Yeah and then it's just all the head garbage that comes with that and making sure that that doesn't veer you off or get you sideways and well yeah and Kathy you were talking about it like call after call with your rates double triple whatever right like it it was so ridiculous. Like many people will go you know like they'll quote them but they'll go uh you know what we're we're triple or whatever. But I'm sure that because it was that case every time you had to get used to delivering the news that it's it's 4500 for your pinto right and they're like what and you go well you know and you you worked through that and became so much better at selling and then now probably so much better at coaching your team so that they can do it because it's so critical like like to always take those swings at the bat, right? A lot of people and I've I mean Jason's heard it from one of my guys he's not with me anymore probably because of this but you know he would he would do that. He'd go oh we're uh we're double so you're probably not gonna you know like it's like what are you doing man? I mean if you ask enough people and we're double some of them are going to buy.

SPEAKER_05 32:59

Yeah they're gonna see some value or they're gonna be that turned off by their prior company or they're gonna be that mad at some, you know, or they're just gonna like you enough. Yeah you absolutely have to learn in this business how to sell on value. And um I heard many many years ago that you know salespeople they can either sell like there's among many many ways there's two kind of ways that salespeople sell either they sell based on relationship building where you know you ask all the questions about their family and their occupation and you know things like that. You get to know them, you become friends or you can sell by way of having just a really I guess polished product knowledge. And that was kind of the way I was like I'm a real type A person and I really am ready to just I guess move move and shake and so I did not necessarily spend a whole lot of time on the phone with people asking them a bunch of personal questions about themselves, but I had a way of being able to explain our products in a way that conveyed the value and how things work. I knew you know insurance laws and policy and you know things like that so well that people earned I earned about trust that hey if something happens I think she I think she knows how it's gonna shake out and I kind of want her on my side.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:19

Um and so yeah it just kind of piggybacking off you have all these conversations and you've got to be able to bring something to the table because your price you know it may be double it may be triple but you know we've got a killer customer service team I would put our team up against anybody I mean we will advocate for you and we also know how things work and yeah you can't talk yourself out of a sale I mean I we've all said don't sell out of your own pocket. Don't sell out of your own pocket. You're you're putting yourself in a bad position from the get go. I mean they people are gonna buy yeah it's a law of large numbers and s in some cases to a certain extent right yeah it's definitely a sport I I really I really relate it to a sport.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

Especially from not having a sales team get back to rebuilding a sales team like when you don't have a sales team and then you got to start again in a market that like everybody says that sucks.

SPEAKER_05 35:12

It's like there's no one to believe nothing except all the except everything sucks, right?

SPEAKER_01 35:17

Like so like when we were building up and it like over this last year it was I I really realized it's like it's such a sport in the sense where nine out of ten people say no. You know like nine out of I mean I don't even know what we're closing here right now. It's not it's not fantastic. But but it's it's less it's less than it was right like we're we're like half we're selling half as much as we used to just because they had a giant rate increase. Whatever, whatever.

SPEAKER_05 35:46

Regardless you're like I'm just happy I can sell now.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Yeah 100% but like it's just managing the nose like the whole job of an LSP is like if they're even getting two sales a day and they're making a couple 150 calls a day and they're quoting eight people like almost nothing's a one call closed. So if they're quoting eight people a day eight to 10 they're hearing all nodes. It's all nodes. So then it's like of course they're not going to operate at 100% every day hearing all nodes. We're feeling based creatures so the feeling that they're gonna get is this sucks. So then it's just managing the this stocks to like hey you're putting in the reps let's get this you're doing good on this you know I'm working out yeah 100% so it's like when it comes to sales I I just tell everybody like like don't look at like there's not a good person there's not a you know a perfect script necessarily but I mean really favor comes to those willing to put in the reps and just put in the reps that's it that's all that matters like guaranteed you'll make you know one or two sales a day if you're getting you know eight to ten quotes you're guaranteed to get one to two sales a day.

SPEAKER_05 37:04

Yeah just put the put the work in talk to people I mean you know I am I I am favorable of this career. I tell people when they come to interview you know this is not going to be like selling cars or selling real estate like you're we're gonna give you a base pay and we're gonna give you leads and all you got to do is talk like I will literally give you a tool belt just stacked with all the best tools I'll give you a super competitive salary. I'll give you the benefits I'll give you a great employee value proposition I will give you you know paid time off I'll give you a you know work from home a great desk a great office culture but this is going to get grindy sometimes but just talk to people follow the talk path and you can make a lot of money and you can move on to grow in other ways. I mean maybe you want to open your own business one day I'll help you do that. Um and so you know there's a lot of different sales out there but I would rather be sitting in an office talking on the phone just chit chatting with people about something I'm knowledgeable about than to be out in the hot sun trying to or the freezing cold rain trying to walk and show somebody a or a house that I've got to put muck boots on to walk to get to the front door and then go in there with these people I don't even know and show them around. I mean it's not a bad gig if you ask me.

SPEAKER_04 38:32

It can be very rewarding. It's just that quantity I think that's the tough like really tough for them right to because it takes so many deals to actually make some money in this game, right?

SPEAKER_05 38:44

Yeah, it does but it's yeah and that's and again with the cyclical you know I mean in a couple years California or other states that are having a hard time right now could be on a totally different trajectory and it's the skills that you built in that time of you know kind of things being down if you can't you know you really have to sell on value during those down times because that's all you have right and so then when they turn it green again then you're ready to rock and roll.

SPEAKER_04 39:14

You just got to be consistent and then the swings don't move as much right they don't hurt the grind wave kind of flattens out. And I mean I remember we used to if we had a $20,000 day it's like holy shit you know I'd jump off the roof and then and then if we had a zero, it's like oh it's the end of the world right yeah and it's like I don't even I I obviously look at the numbers but not like I used to and and I don't have the emotional response that I used to because as long as they're doing the activity in fact I'm more concerned with did they all do Ted quotes right? Did they all quote 10 households today? Yeah how come how come she only did four right like what's going on there? You know so because I know that if she only quotes four, she's either closing a bunch of stuff and neglecting the the activity that needs to be done or just not doing anything. And either way it's not going to be good, right? And that they can control their cycle too. I think early on in an LSP's career it's really important to help them understand like you can't like you closed three things today great you still need the activity or in three weeks you're screwed.

SPEAKER_05 40:19

Yeah you're only as good as that last sale because I mean it it is the business of sales it's just like you know how we you know a month ends and then it the ticker turns back to zero the get the year ends and we're like what did last year do? Like okay we're past it we gotta we gotta win again and so I have a friend who, you know, I think a lot of agents count activity for their team they look at you know what did you sell? What did you quote who'd you call what was your talk time and things like that. And I have a friend who doesn't even look at the sales you know he looks at the quotes and the talk time because that is ultimately the factor that's going to determine your success. If you come in at 8 30 or nine o'clock and you closed you know a three car home policy that's great but but then what? You know okay we got to make you know it's it's just that mind frame.

SPEAKER_04 41:11

All you did then was finish the work from three weeks ago.

SPEAKER_05 41:15

Yeah or three right exactly your pop you you followed up on your pipeline great job but now let's refill that person that just fell out of the pot you need a new one in there.

SPEAKER_04 41:24

Yeah exactly yeah that's that was even like Odin and and Ruddy did it it took a while to understand that. And you know we have so many agents that we've talked to and helped and and you know it's like you know it's always this like aha all of a sudden it's like yeah the sales don't matter you know they they matter of course but they don't matter in the sense that you need to focus on them. You need to focus on what they're doing. Because if they're not doing the sales ain't ever gonna happen.

SPEAKER_05 41:49

Right. And you guys have you know several arms within your business and so you're able to help them keep keep their pipeline going right with the leads and the telemarketing and stuff like that. And so um and that's what we're you know that's what we're that's what we're getting to is you know we've we don't really I mean my my salespeople still call but for the most part I want them quoting. Like you've got this skill set and this license and I think you know y'all said it before I've heard y'all say it before don't put your best most skilled people on the phone calling a hundred and two hundred calls a day get let them quote give somebody else the phone to call and so it's awesome that you have solutions for what you what you're preaching to.

SPEAKER_04 42:33

Yeah well I mean the whole our our whole business started because I mean we were doing it we were talking about it people started coming to going hey how do you do it and we're like I guess we have a business and then COVID happened and it actually helped because people were home. Yeah they were going to the unlucky consequence of of COVID was our the contact rate went through the roof and people were so bored they were they were they're like sure I don't have anything else to do.

SPEAKER_05 43:00

You know I've already grown everything I can grow in my house you know what all the weird wacky crap that people were doing during COVID you know all of a sudden they're like okay I'll get a quote you know or they're so lonely that they were like yeah I'll talk to you yeah yeah no I get it and that's I mean that's been awesome and that's what you know it's what we want right so I'm sure I'm hoping that you know I don't know what you know y'all's ratios are and how it how it works to who how many calls to quotes and things like that. But you know the main thing is is you know providing a solution for agents and salespeople to take that off their plate. It makes it less grindy for the the sales team and you're just providing people hey here's somebody to quote here's the next person to quote and um and that helps I think with staff retention I would think and hope.

SPEAKER_04 43:51

Oh it's huge. Yeah I mean I don't know if you heard this I I've said it a bunch of times but the quick story and I'll just touch on it is I've had somebody my my top producer Who could not get there on time? And it's like it's one of those things. I'm terrible getting on time, you know, it just it's part of the ADHD, but but for that job, and because there's a team, you got to be on time. You know, it's just like it affects everybody. There's a meeting, you know, and then you come in late. It's just like you don't get to do whatever you want. And she was given an ultimatum, and she said, Oh, that's it, I'm leaving then. And she left, and I said to my ops manager, I just said, She'll be back. Because in Tucson, there wasn't a there's nobody else that that is doing the way that we do. You know, the guy gives the leads, has they have they don't have to prospect, right? All they have to do is follow up on their quotes.

SPEAKER_05 44:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:38

And you know, she came back.

SPEAKER_05 44:39

So you called it, yeah. At that point, you know, yeah. Yeah, I mean, she know what's out there.

SPEAKER_04 44:44

And she told everyone how terrible it is out there, which is great.

SPEAKER_02 44:48

Good for you. I know.

SPEAKER_04 44:50

Employee retention, but the cost of that psychologically, and when you get in that trap, you know, we touched on it earlier, but it's like, going, you know, I have the person that I need to get rid of, but I can't get rid of them because I don't have anybody lined up. And if I get rid of it, then I'm gonna hire somebody that is just like them because I'm in a rush, and you know, that whole thing. Can't have that cycle.

SPEAKER_05 45:09

I know. And I had a sit like I had a few people leave a few months ago, and um, you know, the insurance, what's out there now is very is very different now. They they can't they can go find something else, and and and there may be a bigger base pay and less leads, or there may be um, you know, maybe a bigger base pay out here or or something. I don't pay a huge base pay. Mine is very heavily commissioned. And um, but I'm trying to give them literally everything else in terms of everything for you to quote all day long. Anyway, I redid everything. I sat, I mean, I had a real moment where I sat down and I kind of had that moment like you had, Craig, where you were thinking, okay, go find something. Okay, if you think the grass is greener, go find it. I had to ask myself, is the grass greener? I don't know. And so I I really took a moment, I redid my comp plan. I got several agents comp plans, top agents in the country, and I redid my comp plan to make sure that mine was competitive with whatever else they might be able to find. I redid my whole benefits package to where now I offer a professional development stipend. I offer a work-life balance, a volunteer, uh networking, uh, you know, health insurance, life engineering, dental, you know, just whatever you could possibly want from a job, retirement, you know, the paid time off. And I upped my marketing and I said to myself, I'm gonna make sure that I feel confident as I'm interviewing to replace these positions, that I have one of the best offerings now that they'll find anywhere. And um I think that's important for agents to be able to look at their whole package and feel good about what they're offering, to where you can have that attitude like you had, Craig, to where if someone does leave and they feel like they can find it better somewhere else, good luck. You know, because you've you've got it set up to where you're you're trying to offer them a silver platter.

SPEAKER_01 47:26

Yeah. I love that you called it an offering too, because it really is like they're they're investing with you. They're deciding on whether they're gonna spend time with you for the next couple years or maybe even longer. So it's like, what are you offering them? Like what is like you're selling them basically, right? And it's just crazy to me how many people don't put much time into that thought. Like, what is the benefit? What is the offer that you're offering you know somebody new to to join you? I don't think you can look at it like that.

SPEAKER_04 47:57

I mean, it's the biggest cost and the biggest impact on your revenue is your team. If you don't, if your constant turnover, all that lost revenue that that would have happened if the team was solid, I mean it's it's staggering, right? Like it's it's it's just it's a killer.

SPEAKER_05 48:13

Yeah, when you sit down and you look at it and you look at it all, and um it makes me feel good to know that I'm taking care of people as well, because these folks have families and children and spouses, and I want to offer something that um they can feel because you know, you can interview a hundred people and they're all on a job search for a different reason. So it could be pay, it could be culture, it could, I mean, it could be there's no I hear this a lot, there's no growth opportunities where I'm at, you know. I've kind of reached the end of where I can get to, or you know, my coworkers or my management is just kind of toxic or things. So everybody's looking for something really different. And so by offering something that, you know, you feel like you can check mark this box, this box, this box, it's really invaluable. Whatever it costs you to be able to offer and get solid A players, you know, good quality candidates, what they bring, what the quality candidates bring to the table will offset whatever you spend trying to make it appealing to them.

SPEAKER_04 49:24

And and also I think not looking for that unicorn, right? Like I was so in the past, I was so focused on finding the best producer possible, but you can take somebody who's average, like get that is willing to put in the reps and give them all the tools like you suggested, right? Like if you give them everything, somebody who's ad can really do well, right? If they have the right environment, they have the right tools, they could. I mean, because it is a I mean, it's not rocket science, right? It's it's talking to people. If you could talk to people and you could do it every day consistently, you're gonna make money. I mean, I'm sure you have it too. Like we all have people making six figures. I mean, 10 years ago, thinking that I would pay somebody six figures to work for me seemed impossible. Wow. That was like no way, right? No, yeah, right, no way. You know, and and now it's like, yeah, I mean, hell yeah, because if if they're making a hundred or they're making more, whatever, then they're they're creating a lot of revenue, right?

SPEAKER_05 50:19

Yeah, they're helping exactly. Right, exactly. And thankfully, we're in an industry with recurring revenue. So even if we do maybe lose a little money on the front end, if we do, we're we're gonna be okay. You know what I mean? And we just wanna make sure that because at this point, and this wasn't even a thought 10 years ago either, is I can have like any of us could have somebody leave and go find, I mean, go just go to the job board and they can work anywhere in the US. You know, 10, 15 years ago it was like, oh, the agents in my town aren't gonna be able to do what we do. You know what I mean? But now it's like, no, all they have to do is hit up the job boards and work anywhere. Yeah. And and it might I mean, it who knows, like we were talking about before, the grass isn't always greener. There's always gonna be something, you know, but you do have to you're competing with the whole country now, not just your your town.

SPEAKER_04 51:18

Yeah. I mean, George, how many people does George have that aren't in Ohio? Like multiple people, right? I think. I think so, yeah. I mean, he's a hundred percent remote, right? Yeah, I mean, he has 20 or some producers now. It's crazy. But yeah, our our the first person that we, you know, the first person we met and became a a client that's still with us. I mean, he has 20, 20 producers, 30 callers, like it's insane. I'm like, ah wow, you're young. He's younger. I'm like, I don't want to I don't want to deal with that anymore.

SPEAKER_05 51:49

Yeah, it it's a full-time job.

SPEAKER_04 51:51

Just I like six. Six producers is great. You know, that's that's good. You can write 200, everything's fine.

SPEAKER_05 51:57

You can man yeah, you can manage that. Once you get above that, then you kind of need an additional, yeah. You have to start expanding, which I'm kinda I mean, in order to keep up, I mean, and especially, you know, with some carriers, they're offering more on the front end so that it is more enticing to go about it that way. Um, whereas, you know, the old comp plans didn't really incentivize you to go have 30 salespeople.

SPEAKER_04 52:26

Right.

SPEAKER_05 52:27

But now in most states, carriers are kind of switching over to that model where they're paying more on the front end because they want to incentivize, they want to incentivize the agents to have a big sales team.

SPEAKER_04 52:38

And it works. I mean, the numbers pencil, you know, it's just whether or not you it's just a job.

SPEAKER_05 52:43

It's a job. I mean, managing people is something, and that's another thing too that I didn't realize when I first opened my agency, is just because you're a a good salesperson does not equal great business owner or great manager or great leader. You know, those were still I didn't have.

SPEAKER_04 53:02

It's almost the right until you learn it.

SPEAKER_05 53:04

You have to learn it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:06

Oh man, it's psychology.

SPEAKER_05 53:08

It is, it's all psychology. And you know, I don't, I mean, I'm sure you've had these people, you may be, you may have been this person. I know I was. When I was selling, I didn't want to have water cooler talk. I did not want to catch up, you know, in the afternoons on, you know, how did you know your daughter's birthday party go last Saturday? Like I was there to work. Take, take home my money bag and go, you know. And so when you switch it to, okay, now you've actually got to ask people how their day was. And when they come to you with their problem, you gotta like figure it out. You could instead of telling them, oh, I don't know, go do the, you know. Um sometimes the best salespeople are like that. That's why they say the best salespeople don't equal the best managers. That's why you don't always promote your your top salesperson either, because the people skills may not be there. I'm sure y'all ran into that before.

SPEAKER_04 54:00

Yeah. Well, you know, one of my one of my uh really close friends said said to me or asked me, who's your number one employee? Or I'm sorry, your number one customer. And the answer that I've already now just given is is your employee, right? And and it was like, whoa, wait a minute, you know, and I thought I'm really good at talking to people, you know, on the phone that that were, you know, trying to do business, but then I don't want to talk to these guys. But what I thought of it as they literally are my number one customer. If I make them happy and make them good and they buy in, then it's leverage, right? So I started thinking of it like that. If they if they didn't work for me, but they're a customer, how do I approach them differently? How do you treat them? Right? And then you totally treat them totally differently, and uh, you know, then you just learn it. I mean, it's it's it's it's pretty cool, right? Because you you just have to, I mean, you gotta get them, you gotta get them pumped. Leading like Darth Vader doesn't work anymore, right?

SPEAKER_05 54:55

And that's what the the whole um idea of l maybe management, years and years ago, that's the only managers I ever had was people who just kind of, you know, were like mad if you didn't do this or if you caught, you know, I mean, it just all kind of things. I never really had a great manager, and I think that's what really motivated me to to become a leader that people could trust and talk to, is because I had such bad management when I was an employee. But also this idea of servant leadership, you know, they don't work for me. I work for them. I truly do. That is, you know, I'm not going over quotes anymore, but it's my job to now cater and make sure, you know, our our team is happy. And um and that's the best leaders, right? Is the ones who truly have that heartfelt, um genuine care and authenticity for their team members. And they're not, I remember when I worked for uh the agent that I was working for before opening our agent, I just felt like I was just a number. I felt like I had a dollar sign written on my forehead. It did not matter what was going on. I mean, she could not have cared less about what me as a person, right? She didn't even know me as a person. She never cared, you know, she just wasn't that type of leader. And so I aspire to be somebody that that looks at at my team. I don't even like to say employee, my employees. I don't even like that. They're my team, they're my co-workers. You know what I mean? They're family. You you probably feel like that with yours, and you've probably learned yeah, most of them, right? And I'm sure they feel the same about you.

SPEAKER_01 56:38

What would you say, like, especially especially now? I mean, I everybody it's funny because every time we ask this question over the years, it's like there's all this stuff looming in the future. And then it's all kind of the same anyways, but like looking into the future, what what are you excited about? And what do you have on your radar?

SPEAKER_05 56:55

So a little behind on this and like compared to most, but I am not super threatened by AI. I am as the more I learn about it, I think it's gonna make us be able to be very efficient. Um, I think the relationship component is gonna be in the um insurance. I think insurance shoppers are gonna prefer a real human to talk to. Um, I mean, just as a side story, there's been I I've been trying to get there's a particular process that I am trying to get some information on implementing, in which case I've got to get some information from several vendors in order to do that. And I'm reaching out to these vendors as a potential paying customer, and I cannot get answers. They don't answer the phone, they do not return calls, they do not return emails, they do not answer a chat box. I mean, and it and it's very frustrating and makes me really, really value the businesses that I frequent who care, you know, who I'm having human interactions with. And so although I do not see anything on the very near future of AI replacing anything, I I think it will help make things a lot more efficient, and I am excited to s to see that. And one thing too that I am just now, I and again I'm very behind, but I have just started in the remote world this year, and so I've got some staff working remotely. And I do think to myself, like, because I own my office building or I have a mortgage on it, and so I think often like, okay, for what I'm paying for this this mortgage, you know, what else could this pay for to make our team better? And so maybe money is gonna be better spent in different places rather than brick and mortar, and rather than being in person and rather than, you know, I I don't know. Like I said, I'm still kind of behind. I know these are things that y'all have been doing for a while now, but um I'm just I don't know. I I'm curious to kind of see where those things take me, me personally.

SPEAKER_01 59:20

Yeah, I love that. Craig and I have talked a lot about AI and stuff, and AI is going definitely going to replace some stuff, not necessarily people, but activities, right? But I also think that because there's like the AI world and now there's humans, so humans just need to be better better at being human.

SPEAKER_05 59:39

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:42

Like even with my team, I tell them like the best use of your time is actually talking to somebody. Like, you know, if you're behind the computer just typing in stuff, like what makes you different? We can automate that at some point, right? Like five years from now, that's not going to be a skill. But like five years from now, actually talking to you is going to be awesome. So it's like, just get better at that. Like, talk to people more. That's it.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:04

Yeah. And I think, I mean, I don't, I don't really know, but I have heard the speculation that as as AI gets more advanced and as we're using AI more, you know, this you'll talk to these people and you call them and then they're kind of untrustworthy now. I think that might amplify because you could have these voices say anything and they're not gonna know. Am I giving my credit card to the right?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:27

You know what I so it could be your dad on the phone and it sounds exactly like him, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:00:32

Yeah, saying the same crazy.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:35

Right. So it could be a theory that human interaction and being able to prove that you're a real person becomes maybe even more prevalent. Right now it's just kind of the elderly generation that's kind of untrusting and wants to know who, you know, who are you? How'd you get my you know, those are the things we hear right now. But who is this? Right, exactly. So I don't know. It'll it'll be interesting to see. I think we need to be kind of ready and prepared for anything. I mean, cause I mean, just the pace in which things have changed since COVID is almost seems to amplify. I was listening to something the other day that was just saying how fast things changed, you know, just looking over the different decades in the night, you know, in the niggas. And then when COVID hit, it was like decades of of fast forward all within a year, two years, three years. And so um, I think there's pros and cons to it all, but it's how we use it. We got to make sure we're adapt with those skills to be able to um have the knowledge of how to use AI and use it to our advantage.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:44

Love it. Well, Kathy, you've been awesome and thank you for going the distance with us today. Distance over an hour. Really, really appreciate this. Any final thoughts before we get back to work?

SPEAKER_05 1:01:56

Well, for me, it's almost time to go home. I'm on the East Coast, so Oh, that's right. Yeah. It's 4 30 here. So, no, I just I appreciate you guys having me. Y'all are always fun and entertaining. And again, I appreciate what you do for the insurance community with just putting this information out there so that other people in the industry can learn and share and um just collaborate together. It's been fun. It's been a great time talking to y'all.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:29

It's been great talking to you. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:31

Thank you. Thanks so much.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:33

Thank you, Kathy.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:34

It's been awesome.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:35

Thank you. Y'all have a good one.